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20 Vices in pot-limit Omaha

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  • 20 Vices in pot-limit Omaha

    Guys,
    About two weeks ago, we discussed 20 of the main vices in limit hold'em (or TL for texas limit), and rated each of these vices on a scale from 0 (totally unimportant if you lack in that area or not) to 100 (if you lack in that area, this is HORRIBLE for your overall results). Now, I would like you to rate each of these vices for pot-limit Omaha as well, to see where the differences are between the two. Also, if possible, explain WHY you think some of these areas in poker are, or are not, that important for this specific game. Even though is a world of difference between TL and PLO, it IS possible to make the transition successfully (I have done exactly that, when almost everybody claimed I would never succeed, being a "typical" limit hold'em by-the-book player), and therefore I hope that also those of you who are not that familiar with PLO yet, only interested, will still join in on the discussion. (After all, pot-limit Omaha has become THE money-making game for the top professionals in Europe). In a couple of days, I will discuss the most interesting responses and give you my own views.

    20 VICES IN POT-LIMIT OMAHA (PLO)

    01. Not enough PATIENCE in waiting for the right hand / situation
    Points- TL: 87.5 PLO:
    02. Bad TABLE IMAGE
    Points- TL: 45 PLO:
    03. Not knowing the exact ODDS / PERCENTAGES
    Points- TL: 67.5 PLO:
    04. Playing your own cards only, lacking in PLAYING THE PLAYERS
    Points- TL: 70 PLO:
    05. Lacking in TABLE- / GAME-SELECTION
    Points TL: 80 PLO:
    06. Lacking in SEAT SELECTION
    Points- TL: 77.5 PLO:
    07. KNOWING the right play, but not always MAKING the right play
    Points- TL: 75 PLO:
    08. Not performing well under PRESSURE
    Points- TL: 72.5 PLO:
    09. Vulnerable to TILT and STEAMING
    Points- TL: 87.5 PLO:
    10. Lacking in PREPARATION
    Points- TL: 67.5 PLO:
    11. Not LOVING and / or ENJOYING the game enough
    Points- TL: 72.5 PLO:
    12. Not ADJUSTING enough to changed or changing circumstances
    Points- TL: 75 PLO:
    13. Not DISCIPLINED enough (in the broadest sense of the word)
    Points- TL: 90 PLO:
    14. Not capable of creating a healthy GAMBLING ATMOSPHERE
    Points- TL: 72.5 PLO:
    15. Being plain UNLUCKY
    Points- TL: 35 PLO:
    16. Having poor MONEY MANAGEMENT
    Points- TL: 62.5 PLO:
    17. Not AGGRESSIVE enough / not MAXIMIZING WINS
    Points- TL: 67.5 PLO:
    18. Not TRICKY and / or CREATIVE enough
    Points- TL: 55 PLO:
    19. Lacking in the selection of STARTING HANDS
    Points- TL: 85 PLO:
    20. Not capable of FOLDING when hand turns sour
    Points- TL: 77.5 PLO:

  • #2
    Deleted

    Comment


    • #3
      i will post a reply to this thread as soon as i work out my answers
      i am still new to PLO and this is a very trick post to reply too

      as i dont see rolf posting his reply before new year (correct me if i am wrong) i got about 10 days to work on it

      Comment


      • #4
        Not very good at the game I know what MY vices are:

        01. Not enough PATIENCE in waiting for the right hand / situation
        This would be my biggest one and I would Guess most of PSOs I do good for the first round or two then I start playing out of position and way less than "good" hands (I find myself playing lots of hand with "danglers"

        13. Not DISCIPLINED enough (in the broadest sense of the word
        This Fits into all of the vices I would rate this one 100

        19. Lacking in the selection of STARTING HANDS
        See Above


        20. Not capable of FOLDING when hand turns sour
        oh ya thats me

        04. Playing your own cards only, lacking in PLAYING THE PLAYERS
        kinda ties in with the sour thing for me

        07. KNOWING the right play, but not always MAKING the right play
        See all of the above

        --Matt--

        Comment


        • #5
          well, i will do my best to answer this honestly, but as rggator siad, plo is not spread too often in the u.s., the casino by me only has the game once a week, and only one table to choose from, so if the game looks bad, then you dont play. i have not yet ventured into the game in the casino, but i have played it in homegames and back rooms at pool halls. so here is what i think:

          01. Not enough PATIENCE in waiting for the right hand / situation
          90......i think that waiting for the right hand to play is more important in omaha than it is in hold em. there are just way too many hands that you can get trapped with, in my opinion.
          02. Bad TABLE IMAGE
          30....i dont think table image plays a major role in this game at all. a tight image can be good, and a loose, maiacal image can also be useful. i see more poeple playing there cards than the player. after all, with a full 10 handed game, 45 of 52 cards are out, so it can be difficult to try to pull off a bluff.
          03. Not knowing the exact ODDS / PERCENTAGES
          85......i think that knowing the odds and percentages are extremely useful in omaha. you have to know how many outs you have and what the pot is laying you iin order to make your decision. it is one game where you can flop the nuts, but without any redraws, it might be best to fold the hand. or on the other side of the coin, you can flop no made hand, but have outs to the nut str8 and nut flush, which could make you a favorite to a made hand. so i put emphasis on knowing the odds/percentages.
          04. Playing your own cards only, lacking in PLAYING THE PLAYERS
          40..... yes, you need to play your cards, but also note who is going off like a rocket. who plays every hand, and every draw. who can you raise out of the pot, and who can you bluff if you hold a blocker,(such as a flush on board, and you hold the ace of that suit, with no other card of that suit)
          05. Lacking in TABLE- / GAME-SELECTION
          20-80....i give this one two ratings, one high and one low because like i said before, i dont have an option as to table or seat i get. but i do have the option to pass on the game entirely. so i think game selection is important, but in regards to whether ior not i sit down.........
          06. Lacking in SEAT SELECTION
          same as above, but i would love to have position on the maniac playing every hand preflop. it would be nice to reraise and try to get heads up with someone that plays any 4 cards on a consistent basis.
          07. KNOWING the right play, but not always MAKING the right play
          97........ in omaha, i think this is the one major mistake all players make when learning this game. most come from a hold em backround, so it is hard for them to ladwn a hand( including me) when the board changes. you will cost yourself extreme amounts of money if you arent able to amke the right play when you know it is the right play.
          08. Not performing well under PRESSURE
          90...another high score for this one on my list. in any pot limit game, you are playing for high stakes,. unless you are rather wealthy, when the raising starts to happen and the stakes grow, that puts pressure on you, and if you cant handle it well, you will crack. you will lose your money, you will give away major tells, and you will go on tilt and lose more than you can afford to lose and damage your bankroll or wipe it out altogether.
          09. Vulnerable to TILT and STEAMING
          92...... there is no room for tilting in any big bet poker game. if you cannot play with a clear head, and play your A game at all times, then you shouldnt be playing at all.
          10. Lacking in PREPARATION
          60..... as i said in the limit hold em section, preperation is important, as it gets you in a mindset to play your best game., but it is not the most important thing in my mind.
          11. Not LOVING and / or ENJOYING the game enough
          79...... if you dont love the game, then why play? when you do something you love, you give it your all, your best. no sense inplaying a game with hard earned money, if you dont enjoy it.
          12. Not ADJUSTING enough to changed or changing circumstances
          65.....in big bet poker, people come and go from the table as they go bust. the players change so the situation changes and the style of game changes. you have to be able to adjust your play accordingly, otherwise you are costing yourself money in the long run. in order to maximize profits, you have to be able to adjust to the game and players, and push every edge you have.
          13. Not DISCIPLINED enough (in the broadest sense of the word)
          88....to me, pot limit omaha is one of the toughest games, because it requires the most discipline. in starting hands, concentration, and with every turn of the cards, the nut hand can change, if you are not disciplined, you will be making crying calls and chasing too much.
          14. Not capable of creating a healthy GAMBLING ATMOSPHERE
          50..... a healthy atmosphere is always good, a happy loser sticks around longer and loses more money. an angry loser, leaves the table. make the game fun for all, and they will gladly fill your pockets...lol
          15. Being plain UNLUCKY
          10...... i believe we create our own luck. put yourself in aposition to get lucky.
          16. Having poor MONEY MANAGEMENT
          75.......no room for poor money management in pot limit unless you want to be railbirding the game for a while. control your bankroll so you have enough money to outlast the swings of the gmae.
          17. Not AGGRESSIVE enough / not MAXIMIZING WINS
          79....if you dont maximize your wins, you are costing yourself money in the end. it could make the difference on whether or not you end up in the positive side or the negative side for the year.
          18. Not TRICKY and / or CREATIVE enough
          40....i dont think you need to be to tricky in PLO, i think you will gladly get paid off by players if you just play a straightforward game....play strong when strong and weak when weak....
          19. Lacking in the selection of STARTING HANDS
          95..... this goes right along with discipline, as i stated before. on of the most important aspects of PLO.
          20. Not capable of FOLDING when hand turns sour
          100.....you can play great poker all night long and build a mound of chips, but in PLO, you can lost that whole mound of chips in one hand. if you cannot fold your set when a flush hits the board, or fold your str8 or flush when the board pairs, you will be in serious financial trouble fast.

          after playing hold em for half a dozen years, i had a hard time learning omaha. i am still learning the game, and i consider myself to be a beginner at it. i still in the back of my head, have a very hard time folding a flopped set, because i know it will stand up in a hold em game, where in oaha, it is fairly common to see set over set over set. hands like that still get me in trouble, but i am learning to get away from that mindset. i also think you have to play hands that have many possibilities, with redraws to the nuts on top of your made hand. i am hoping to learn alot more about this game, in a ring game setting verses a tournament setting. i know there is a ton of money to be made if i can learn to play it properly. good luck, and i will cya at the tables......

          Comment


          • #6
            My view

            Guys,

            For those of you who are not that experienced with PLO live games, keep in mind that they are very different from Internet live games, or PLO tournament play. In the online PLO games, there is often a cap on the buy-in, and you have less information to rely on when making your decisions (since you cannot see your opponents). In tournaments, the flow of the game is often totally different from live games (tighter play / losing one pot means busting out / sum of the blinds as a percentage of the average stack size is higher). Having said all this, PLO live games are often spectacular, exciting, and extremely profitable, so I would recommend all serious players to start studying this game into depth. I will give you my ratings on each of the 20 vices now; I will save the exact explanation for one of my upcoming articles. In general, a few of the most important factors to be a winner in limit hold'em (patience, discipline, good hand selection) are still important in pot-limit Omaha, but not more important than things like maximizing your edge, folding when you're beat, creating a good gambling atmosphere, playing the players and knowing the exact odds and percentages. Because one single mistake can cost your entire stack and one massive pot can make up for quite a few small losses, PLO requires a totally different mindset than limit hold'em- not in the last place because of the power of draws in Omaha. OK, here we go:

            20 VICES IN POT-LIMIT OMAHA (PLO)

            01. Not enough PATIENCE in waiting for the right hand / situation
            Points- TL: 87.5 PLO: 82.5
            02. Bad TABLE IMAGE
            Points- TL: 45 PLO: 65
            03. Not knowing the exact ODDS / PERCENTAGES
            Points- TL: 67.5 PLO: 87.5
            04. Playing your own cards only, lacking in PLAYING THE PLAYERS
            Points- TL: 70 PLO: 87.5
            05. Lacking in TABLE- / GAME-SELECTION
            Points TL: 80 PLO: 82.5
            06. Lacking in SEAT SELECTION
            Points- TL: 77.5 PLO: 82.5
            07. KNOWING the right play, but not always MAKING the right play
            Points- TL: 75 PLO: 80
            08. Not performing well under PRESSURE
            Points- TL: 72.5 PLO: 82.5
            09. Vulnerable to TILT and STEAMING
            Points- TL: 87.5 PLO: 85
            10. Lacking in PREPARATION
            Points- TL: 67.5 PLO: 62.5
            11. Not LOVING and / or ENJOYING the game enough
            Points- TL: 72.5 PLO: 65
            12. Not ADJUSTING enough to changed or changing circumstances
            Points- TL: 75 PLO: 75
            13. Not DISCIPLINED enough (in the broadest sense of the word)
            Points- TL: 90 PLO: 85
            14. Not capable of creating a healthy GAMBLING ATMOSPHERE
            Points- TL: 72.5 PLO: 80
            15. Being plain UNLUCKY
            Points- TL: 35 PLO: 42.5
            16. Having poor MONEY MANAGEMENT
            Points- TL: 62.5 PLO: 70
            17. Not AGGRESSIVE enough / not MAXIMIZING WINS
            Points- TL: 67.5 PLO: 75
            18. Not TRICKY and / or CREATIVE enough
            Points- TL: 55 PLO: 60
            19. Lacking in the selection of STARTING HANDS
            Points- TL: 85 PLO: 82.5
            20. Not capable of FOLDING when hand turns sour
            Points- TL: 77.5 PLO: 82.5

            If you guys have any questions or comments regarding some of the factors mentioned here, or about PLO live play in general, feel free to post them on this forum. Take care, and good luck,

            Rolf.
            Last edited by deleted_username; Thu Sep 13, 2007, 11:42 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Deleted

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by thehazyone
                I'm curious why you value playing your opponent so highly - I would think that while yes, it is important, it isn't as important as in Hold Em - that your cards matter more - that bluffing isn't as possible in PLO. Would love to hear your explanation.
                Replying just so I can see if my thinking is correct...

                I think playing the players is VERY important in PLO, in that if you know what players will raise with or will call raises with, you're in a much better position on the flop than your opponent. If you know that an opponent will raise only with suited aces or kings, you can, among other things:

                a) play hands that will play well against these hands (such as middle connectors) -- for a reasonable price -- while avoiding those that will not (mostly paint underpairs and AK-anchored hands), and

                b) take a flop that you know did not hit your opponent (something like 953 rainbow) and force your opponent to lay his hand down on the flop, if he is prone to do so (one place where you can usually run a bluff successfully, especially if you're marked as someone who will play a lot of different types of hands).

                And, of course, if you yourself only raise with these hands, you can have the same done to you. That's why I think it helps to raise with a wide variety of hands, so you can't be marked by your opponents. You, of course, do NOT want to play against opponents who take this style, unless they play very poorly postflop.

                Chris

                Comment


                • #9
                  Deleted

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by thehazyone
                    Yes, Chris, I agree, but I still don't see how playing the opponent is more important in PLO than it is in HE - I just find the opposite to be the case, but maybe that is because my PLO experience is strictly limited to tourney's.
                    It's possible...I know that late in tournaments, I definitely want to be playing (and raising with) pretty much only big pocket pairs. I don't really care about being predictable, since the money is so shallow and I'm just interested in going to the middle with a big hand. It's a totally different animal.

                    But in ring games, and early on in tournaments, I think you can definitely use tendencies to your advantage. If you can KNOW, with near certainty, what your opponent holds, or whether he'll bluff at certain flops, or whether he can be pushed off big cards on bad flops (guilty), it's only a matter of time before his stack becomes yours.

                    I, too, am very interested in seeing Rolf's reply.

                    Chris

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Guys,

                      Black Aces is right. If someone raises with big pairs / high cards only, you can put pressure on him with certain type of flops. But also on the later streets, it is important to know your players, to know if you a) can get away with a bluff if certain cards come that may not have helped your opponent, or may have helped you, or b) are up against someone who will pay you off, and how much money do you think you can get out of him.

                      In general, what makes the "playing the players" aspect this important in PLO, is NOT so much the game (Omaha), it is the pot-limit betting structure. Actually, the fact that PLO is a value-driven game and a relatively large percentage of pots ends up in a showdown, means the importance of "playing the players" is downgraded somewhat; in pot-limit hold'em, this concept would be of even more importance, because you have more and better opportunities to put a play on someone.

                      One final thing: when going through your replies, I believe someone stated that it is hard to get away with a bluff in PLO (like for instance, when you would try to bet someone off his big pair when small cards flop). While this is true in LIMIT Omaha, in pot-limit there is a LOT of semi-bluffing (with big draws) and also outright bluffing (especially at the later streets, and / or when people are playing large stacks). Anyway, thanks for your comments. Good luck to you all,

                      Rolf.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Deleted

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          20 VICES IN POT-LIMIT OMAHA (PLO)

                          01. Not enough PATIENCE in waiting for the right hand / situation
                          Points- 100
                          02. Bad TABLE IMAGE
                          Points- 40
                          03. Not knowing the exact ODDS / PERCENTAGES
                          Points- 90
                          04. Playing your own cards only, lacking in PLAYING THE PLAYERS
                          Points- 100
                          05. Lacking in TABLE- / GAME-SELECTION
                          Points 80
                          06. Lacking in SEAT SELECTION
                          Points- 85
                          07. KNOWING the right play, but not always MAKING the right play
                          Points- 100
                          08. Not performing well under PRESSURE
                          Points- 50
                          09. Vulnerable to TILT and STEAMING
                          Points- 100
                          10. Lacking in PREPARATION
                          Points- 70
                          11. Not LOVING and / or ENJOYING the game enough
                          Points- 30
                          12. Not ADJUSTING enough to changed or changing circumstances
                          Points- 75
                          13. Not DISCIPLINED enough (in the broadest sense of the word)
                          Points- 90
                          14. Not capable of creating a healthy GAMBLING ATMOSPHERE
                          Points- 80
                          15. Being plain UNLUCKY
                          Points- 20
                          16. Having poor MONEY MANAGEMENT
                          Points- I don't understand this one
                          17. Not AGGRESSIVE enough / not MAXIMIZING WINS
                          Points- 95
                          18. Not TRICKY and / or CREATIVE enough
                          Points- 65
                          19. Lacking in the selection of STARTING HANDS
                          Points- 95
                          20. Not capable of FOLDING when hand turns sour
                          Points- 100

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