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Well, I got what I wished for.

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  • Well, I got what I wished for.

    If you can bear (left-handed?) with me, I am going to post my play in a hand, and specific thoughts, but also looking for comments on some of the general ideas here too.

    It is early in a 10K NLHE tourny on PSO. The blinds have just gone up to 50/100. So far the table is tight. Usually a pre-flop raise wins it. No pots over about 400 or so.

    I am in the 8th seat and am the small blind with 22. All limp to the button (my opinion of this player is that he is slightly less experienced, but has a good concept of basic NLHE. and is NOT a maniac or a kamakazzee (oops spelled wrong?) -- He has made some recent posts and I believe he would not play "goofy cards")

    Button limps for 100.

    I call 50 (Please oh please let me flop a set. and please Mr. Big Blind do not make a big bet.)

    Big Blind checks ( My opinion of the BB is a good player. I have played against him and give him an "A")

    Flop comes 2d 9s 4d

    YES. I GOT MY WISH!!!. At this point I admit that I am greedy. I don't want just this wimpy $300 pot. I want to get some chips, after all I have a set, so I decide to just make a wimpy $100 bet. I did not want to check (two diamonds is not good on flop, and hate to give free card) and decided not to bet the pot (too greedy. I wanted to win MORE than just 300) So I settled on the minimun bet ($100). I had in mind to give it up if a 3rd diamond came. and just decide what else to do after I saw the turn.

    BB and Button both call $100. Pot is now at $600.

    Turn is 7s.

    Darn. Now I am looking at TWO flush draws, maybe a straight draw with A-3 or A-5 or something else. Perhaps I getting myself in trouble here. And I have to act first so I decide to bet $1000. That is more than a pot-sized bet. Maybe just winning $600 is OK. And if some one is drawing that will make them pay. HHMM. Lots of card on the river that I sure do not want to see. Any diamond , Any spade, a 3, 5, . Yup. Lots of cards can hurt me. Maybe the board will pair. Yeah, That's it. I need thef board to pair.

    BB and Button both call my $1000 bet.

    Darn. What do these people have?


    river is 4s.

    YES. The board paired and put 3 spades on the board. OH BOY.
    I hope some one got a flush. STrait flush? nope.

    I have to act first and bet $3500 ( I did not write this part down, and I cannot remember if it was 3000 or 3500) at the $3600 pot.

    Big Blind raises me (about $3500. Again I did not write it down. ops: 0

    Button gets out of the way .

    So what does this guy have?

    a flush? That would be really hard to imagine that he had 2 spades and called a bet on the flop with only one spade on board. Maybe had two overcards that were both spades?

    a 4? maybe that's it. maybe had a 4 in the BB and stuck around to see the turn?

    I bet he has a flush. OK. BB I will just raise you all-in because I have a boat. So I did and he called.

    Please critique my play, as I think I have thought about this for a day and think I should have done some things different.

    The Big Blinds cards? Think about what has happened and think of your response first please.














    He had a 9-4. (Remember Big Blind saw the flop for free) 44499 beats my 22244. He played it great.

    And I got what I wished for.

    Shane aka Jeff

  • #2
    Jeff,

    You got greedy. You should have bet big on the flop to take it down.
    Set if 2's must be played fast, fast fast. 2 or 3 x's pot.

    I don't know your competition, so he might not have laid down two pair on the flop, but you have got to take your shot to push'm to make the big mistake, not little calling mistake.

    Set's are good and playing them fast does not always work.
    I flopped second set in 6pm NLHE last night got all my money in on flop and found out utg flopped top set IGHN.

    Todays 3pm nlhe tourney I flop second set (i was utg and made small raise to start action). Get 2 callers. Flop is T,8, x suited and I bet the flop at the pot. one caller. Turn is T and I go all-n. IGHN, as the caller flips up TT.

    You were lucky. It only happened once to you.

    Comment


    • #3
      Pot on flop. Overbet pot on turn. All-in on river if any left. Then bust

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Well, I got what I wished for.

        Originally posted by Shane
        It is early in a 10K NLHE tourny on PSO. The blinds have just gone up to 50/100. So far the table is tight. Usually a pre-flop raise wins it. No pots over about 400 or so.
        I think I already figured this one out...you couldn't have been on PSO, must have been some other site :lol:

        Comment


        • #5
          Noodles said:
          Pot on flop. Overbet pot on turn. All-in on river if any left. Then bust
          Succinct and to the point! LOL! I agree.
          You've got trips, but the "ABC" play with the flush draw on the flop forces you to bet at least the pot. You wanted to make a bit more from this one then it initially offered: "I'll risk the pot and an additional $100 to try to milk this for more." An advanced play. And one of the keys to playing an advanced play like this is to know when to put the breaks on the play and end the hand. When the 7s hit on the turn and gave two flush draws, you needed to change from the trip slow play to taking it down right there. A "perfect" card for you would have been a K, Q, or a J of Hearts or Clubs, instead of another flush opportunity. Something that one of the other players could hang their hat on: they probably didn't limp in with a pair of one of those, and you can extract more from them. But the 2 flushes force you to overbet the pot (say....Pot), to take it down right there. You have got to overbet this now to convince them that you slow played trips!
          Unfortunately, the player with the 9,4 has two pair and top pair. And for him, this is probably gonna look like a BB special where HE is gonna make a big money killing. So he might not fold. He might call or move all-in. If he calls, well, he hit the bigger boat and you loose. If he calls all-in, he puts you on a decision for all your chips with you having low set. Tough to dump a set.
          The poker gods were very unkind to you on this one. Gave you two choices for the "prom": the nice girl next door ($300), or you could spend all your money on the Head Cheerleader ($something more!). You got greedy and went for the Cheerleader. And after she had allllllll your money committed to her, she blew you off and went to the prom with someone else. Making that advanced play with low set is always risky.

          Comment


          • #6
            Gee...and I thought the only thing you wished for was that I would finally pay up and buy you that drink in Tunica I owe you.

            This is one reason I hate the low pair. Always the hideous danger that you bump into the larger set - or once the board pairs, you can be facing a bigger boat...and both cases have you dead before you even know your bleeding. But then again, I am a player that fears the monster under the bed. (Part of this is founded in fact, however: once you have a pp, the odds are greater that someone else will have a pp. If 2 people have a pp, the odds are even greater that there will be a third with one. OK - maybe I obsess a little too much about the pp syndrome.)

            But even I would have played 22 in the sb/bb. With 2 ds on the board I would have bet a good one. Without the two of a suit showing, I would probably check and hope someone bets on the flop or catches on the turn - which would have lead me down the same path that you journeyed. But quite frankly, I'm not sure what you would have to bet to get the bb off top 2 on the flop. If I am the bb, I might even raise right back at you, putting you on top pair, flush draw scare, crappy pp, or a slow played overpair. Strangely enough, in this case, he probably thought he was slow playing you.

            You were just doomed my friend...

            There still is that drink waiting for you in Tunica,

            oil doe

            Comment


            • #7
              I forgot to add that the play would have been quite different without the flush draw on the flop. On that flop, if it was ragged, you should probably bet half the pot and take it from there. You could also possibly get away from bottom set on this texture flop with no flush draw depending on how the hand goes with regards action, the opponents, pyschology of moment, and depth of money.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thank ya'll (that's what we say down he-are in Oklahoma) very much.

                I especially liked Bruno's reference to my high school dating life.
                And yes, doe. I am planning to collect on that drink.

                See ya'll in in the Big One II on Saturday, or maybe in Tunica.

                Shane aka Jeff

                Comment


                • #9
                  I said overbet the pot on turn. I don't think it is really necessary in general in this spot. The backdoor flush shouldn't really be a concern in this situation I think.

                  In fact, it may be a good thing as someone may represent it on the river, with their busted flush.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Noodles
                    The backdoor flush shouldn't really be a concern in this situation I think.

                    In fact, it may be a good thing as someone may represent it on the river, with their busted flush.
                    How do you represent a flush with a busted flush? Do you mean when the river card is the third card of the same suit they may represent the flush with their busted hand?

                    Ricky Hard

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      shane,

                      i believe that was me last night and if i remeber correctly....i was thinking that if you went bif on the flop i was out of there, but you let me have a free and then a 7 came and you only a thousand and now im think that you have only a mid pair while i was sitting on top 2 pair. then the river came and came me the nut full house(if there is such a thing) and you bet the pot so now im think you have 2 pair so i raised back at you. please dont be made at me it was just one of those that a bb gets every so often that board pairs exactly the way you want it to. normally i dont even consider playing a hand like this but with a free flop and free turn i had to take a chance.

                      farnold2

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        No. No. I am not mad at you or anyone. I am questioning my decisions and actions that led to me being chipless. I enjoy reading other people's opinions on this and other situations. One day this situation will come up again and I am learning a better way to play.
                        The Big Blind played it great.


                        Jeff

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ricky Hard
                          Originally posted by Noodles
                          The backdoor flush shouldn't really be a concern in this situation I think.

                          In fact, it may be a good thing as someone may represent it on the river, with their busted flush.
                          How do you represent a flush with a busted flush? Do you mean when the river card is the third card of the same suit they may represent the flush with their busted hand?

                          Ricky Hard
                          There are 2 flush draws out by the turn. The backdoor one is unlikely in that spot. If backdoor flush gets there, then the busted flush may represent. Maybe not.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            As previously stated, you have to bet bigger on the flop to make a flush draw pay. Maybe just a little under pot-size bet. No diamond on turn and bet 1x to pot. Make a flush draw fold(or foolishly pay way too much for one card to hit the flush).

                            OK, what about a higher set? You cannot consider that until you get the $1000 callers on the turn. Your pot-sized bet on river is fine since you now have the boat against a possible flush. Mostly-likely the raise on the river is an Ace-high flush looking to bust a lower flush. A lot less likely is that a higher set has slow-played. There should have been a raise on the turn by such a set. A 4 in a "free look at the flop" BB would not have called your turn bet without a 2nd pair(I don't think 2 spades with the 4s would call $1000 on the backdoor flush draw).

                            Possible hands that you beat:
                            Underpair - should have folded on turn.
                            Top, botton pair - should have folded on turn.
                            Overpair - should have raised on turn.
                            Flush draw(diamonds) - should really have folded on turn.
                            Pair of 9s and spades flush draw - could have called on turn.
                            Two-pair without a 4 (92,72,97) - should have raised on turn.
                            4x (possibly both spades) - maybe with a spades flush draw, the 4x could have called on the turn.

                            So, what's he got that has you beat?
                            Only these five hands: 44,99,77,42,94
                            Since he didn't raise on the turn, only the 42 and 94 could(should) be in his hand(and needing the case 2, 42 is unlikely). Even with these, I think most players would also raise on the turn with two-pair to stop the flush draws. No need to slow-play 2-pair with that much money already in the pot. He allowed a diamond or non-four spade to possibly hit the river(what would he have thought if that happened: "Damn, should have gotten that flush draw out - now is my two-pair beat?"). Speaking of flush draws, $1000 call on turn with a draw is loose in my opinion. A bluff raise with a draw would not be very smart since your $1000 bet is showing strength.

                            Letting the BB see the flop for free is always dangerous. You have to consider many more possible hands he could have. With 22, you want to see the flop cheap, so you're just taking your chances letting the BB in. Just remember that the normal rules don't apply anymore concerning discounting garbage hands.

                            A larger bet on the flop would have caused some of those possible hands that don't have you beat to fold(or pay too much to see the turn, such as the single pair hand). Two-pair or set on flop aren't going anywhere. So, a larger flop bet is really only to make flush draw either fold or pay for their draw, and get out any single-pair flopped or < pair of 9s. An overpair to the flop will call or raise both the flop and turn bets then call/fold on river.

                            BOTTOM LINE: Most players are losing a lot on this hand. The variation is that a conservative player would not have lost all his chips. A check-call on the river could lose less because the BB is not going to bet all-in to a check. He's going to want to get something and will be afraid the all-in bet will get no callers. This conservative play is not recommended unless close to the bubble of a supersat(i.e. where lasting a little longer pays the same as winning the tournament). If you've won your way into a $10K event, you also could be looking to make the money first and win it after that.

                            So, everyone gets busted with very good hands. Keep playing agressively and not worry too much that the nuts is against you.

                            Comment

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