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interesting situation.

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  • interesting situation.

    i had this come up last night during the $200 buy in NLHE. im in the BB with AA, dont remember what the blinds are exactly but i want to say it was 100/200. i have 12K in chips and when it comes to me there are 6 limpers in the pot. i put in a pot reaise and get 4 callers. now up to this point in the game i have been playing kinda loose becasue i have been looking at a lot of flops. the flop comes and it shows As 6s Js. keep in mind i have AA. hte firstguy checks the second guy bets 500 and the third guy fold and the forth guy calls. what should i do at this point? i have read at this that AA is not that good of a hand with multiple callers. as usual i ignore myself and put in a pot raise and then the first guy reraises all in. the other to guys call all in, and know its to me. i think i have like 9K left in chips and i call that would leave me with 3K. what would you do? of course i didnt listen to me telling myself that all these guys are on spades draw so i called. and the next to cards bring spades to the board for a total of 5 spades on the board and lose. what would everyone else have done? this seems to be the kind of decisions that i have been faces with alot lately and so far for the month my results are not that good. does anyone else have the same problem as with a monster hand and laying down?

    thanks farnold2

    ps sorry for all the recent posts latley but i havent had any luck trying to figure things out on my own lately

  • #2


    James, ARGH!!!!!!!! :

    i FEEL YOUR PAIN

    You have analized it pretty well yourself.

    I've been beat'n with sets of A's on the flop-board several times. They are extremely hard to turn loose. You always have outs to make the top full-house or quads.

    Once had it happened on back to back hands. My last hand in NLHE $1K buy-in WPO 1999. Then sit in on 10/20 HE game at HS and find AA. Cap betting pre-flop heads up. Guy beats me with "MISSISSIPPI-SLICK." He called 5 bets with 2,3o and runs me down with wheel.

    If you are coming to WPO and plan to play LHE at the HS, be careful. They play 2,3 and A,K for all the money. MS = BS

    Comment


    • #3
      I will preface this with this statement. I am still learning, but I will approach this as a "test essay question" and give it my best shot

      OK. First thing I would do different is to make a big-a** raise from the BB with all those limpers and deep money. Pot-sized is not enough. First guy calls and then everyone comes running to the feed bucket. 6 limpers and you? if 1400 in pot, I would raise it to 5000. If all fold then that's ok. Maybe someone has KK, QQ, or AK and wants to get it in with you. I sure don't want to play AA with 6 people.

      Scarey flop. I would call 500, but not put very many more chips in unless the board pairs. Three suited cards with 4 players is really not good. Even if someone does not have two spades, several people have one spade and early in a tournament, some of them will go to the river no matter what, unless you pull out a gun and shoot them dead right now. I would lay it down after the flop facing a big raise.

      Comments are welcome and encouraged.


      Thanks
      Shane aka Jeff

      Comment


      • #4
        Blinds are 100/200 so it's still early in the tournament, and the money is deep (blind to stack ratio). There were 6 limpers before you, so the pot is at $1400/$1500 at your turn, and you raised the pot. The absolute key question here is: What were you hoping to accomplish with this raise? If one person calls, anyone after them will have pot odds to call with a nut flush draw, big str8t, two big sooted connectors, etc. If one of the first 6 limpers has KK and calls, a following limper with AKs may call, then the limper with J10s will call, etc., etc..... and you haven't narrowed the field and will be an underdog to the field. In that situation you must be happy winning the pot, right then and there, and a pot sized riaise ain't gonna do it. You must go BIG: 3x the pot or all-in. The only person who should call you would be someone with KK, and you want that tohappen, as your AA is a big favorite over KK.
        the flop comes and it shows As 6s Js. keep in mind i have AA. The firstguy checks the second guy bets 500 and the third guy fold and the forth guy calls. what should i do at this point?
        Call. That many limpers with a flush flop is scary. You are gonna want to get to the end of this hand spending as little as possible. You are not trying to build a pot here. You've got top trips but, probably, are looking at a flush out there and need a full-house to win. You don't want to fold them, but you want to turn over cards as cheaply as possible at this point.
        as usual i ignore myself and put in a pot raise and then the first guy reraises all in. the other to guys call all in, and know its to me. i think i have like 9K left in chips and i call that would leave me with 3K. what would you do?
        Fold. Think about range of hands your opponents could be on. You don't speak of how the rest of the table dyamics were, just that "i have been playing kinda loose becasue i have been looking at a lot of flops". More on that in a bit. The first guy, who checked then went all in, is representing a HUGE trap. You could put him on JJ, 66, AJ, KsQs or KsJs, or a bluff. Probably in some part because of your table image so far. The third guy folds and the fourth guys calls. The only reason I can see the fourth guy calling is because he has the nuts (Kxs). So at this point, you MUST LAY THE SET OF ACES DOWN. Brutally hard to do but, you still have 9k stack, it's early, and your money is still deep. Fold it and live to see another hand.

        Now, about your comment "i have been playing kinda loose becasue i have been looking at a lot of flops". Why have you been doing this? Not that it is necessarily wrong but, you must have reasons to do this. Some people will do it early to give the table an impression that they are loose, when in fact they are not: It's a set-up. Some people will do it because the money is so deep early. Some people will do it because they are just trying some thing different out to expand their game. Some people will do it to affect the other players on the table: low card beat someone who is known to tilt and go from there. Some players do it under some misguided assertion that "any two cards can win" and that Ciuffone, McEvoy, Cloutier, Kreiger, etc. aren't as smart as they are.

        One problem with seeing a lot of flops early is that your table image becomes one of "loose", and they won't respect you when you do raise. Hell, the first limper might have had AJ, thought you were on Ak (becuase of your loose play), and made a big go at the pot with his re-raise all-in trying to bluff out everyone else!

        If you want the loose table image early, continue to see a lot of flops. I would suggest that in deep money early, sooted connectors and small pairs go up in value, because you can see the flop cheaply and hope to flop a str8t/flush or a set cheaply. Nonsensical holdings, such as J6o, are still worthless. Let them go and save the bet. Position is still important, but not as important as when the money is shallower. I would suggest taking a relook at the starting hand value chart on the site and reading a bit about the "gap concept".

        PS: No problem on the many posts. Keep them coming. It stirs conversation and debate, and everyone learns.

        Comment


        • #5
          Mentioned by other posters: When there are that many limpers, you got to pop it 2X or 3X the pot preflop. I think if you did this, you would have driven all but one out.


          And as mentioned, you only want one caller max.


          Randy

          Comment


          • #6
            First off, post more Shane/Jeff. You are a very good player and I would love to read what you have to write.

            Second, this is a great post because how many times do we see people eliminated when 3 flushes flop? A LOT! Applies to three straights to a lesser degree, but three of a kind against a three flush, and 2 or more players is a very tough hand. We shouldn't forget you still have quite a few outs if the full house comes, but this is not a hand you want to go broke with after just the flop!

            Third, ALL IN preflop! Don't even think about milking the pot with 5 or 6 people limping -- you need to limit the pot to 1 or 2 players at most and then you are a big favorite preflop. Against 6 you are a dog! Be content to take this pot down now!

            Call the $500 because you have pot odds that a full house might come. But against 6 players, flush on board (and straight draw, if flush isn't bad enough), you don't want to get all of your chips in here.

            great posts by Bruno and Shane!

            Tim

            Comment


            • #7
              U2 RG -- was typing when yours posted!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: interesting situation.

                Originally posted by farnold2
                i had this come up last night during the $200 buy in NLHE. im in the BB with AA, dont remember what the blinds are exactly but i want to say it was 100/200. i have 12K in chips and when it comes to me there are 6 limpers in the pot. i put in a pot reaise and get 4 callers. now up to this point in the game i have been playing kinda loose becasue i have been looking at a lot of flops. the flop comes and it shows As 6s Js.
                Once three spades flop, you are essentially drawing to 7 outs on the turn and 10 outs on the river. A pair of aces is not a guaranteed winner with 4 callers before the flop, and a set of aces is reduced to a drawing hand once there are 3 suited cards on the flop.

                At the moment the flop was exposed, you no longer had any control over this hand. Anyone with a high spade was likely to stay in there to the river.

                Comment


                • #9
                  In my opinion you should generally overbet the pot when out of position facing a large field of limpers. It may make some people think you are stealing. It also charges them a price for having position on you. I would raise 1.5-2 times the pot. On that depth of money, it may tempt someone to commit and move-in against you, or like I say it charges them a premium price if they want to call and see the flop with position, where the pot would be so big that play would be pretty automatic anyway if headsup/3 way post-flop. I doubt that a good player would call that raise preflop, they would probably move-in or fold.

                  I say that in general you need a good reason not to bet the full pot size. This is one such reason, where you have a good reason to overbet the pot. Out of postion against a large field preflop. Do it with any hand you decide to raise in this type of situation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Why not all-in Noodles? With AA you want 1 caller, 2 at the most. Why even let someone think they are getting pot odds?

                    Unless you want action (valid I suppose with AA, but I would disagree), you are inviting an avalanche of calls with any bet other than all-in. Once one player calls, others will probably follow because pot will be huge, and players will figure they can triple or more up on the hand.

                    I want the pot there if I can, or at least limit callers to 1!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I like the advice to overbet preflop to whittle down the field in this hand. You may get a caller or two. Now what do you do on this flop? Why not consider an all-in raise here? Worst case you are called by a flush. Assuming they had you covered, you would be getting more than 2-1 pot odds for a 2-1 shot at a boat. Best case they call on the flush draw (-EV), or they fold and you win a big pot. I would probably only call if the pot odds were right and I had a good read that the bettor had the flush. Otherwise I would really enjoy going all-in with these aces. :lol:

                      Den

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tko14
                        Why not all-in Noodles? With AA you want 1 caller, 2 at the most. Why even let someone think they are getting pot odds?
                        Because against typical good players, I don't think they would be getting pot odds. I mean, I doubt there would generally be a family pot seeing the flop after my size raise preflop. It would take a very bad player to flat call that size bet on that depth of money with other players still to act behind them. I would be expecting somebody to move-in rather than call, and that's what I want them to do. I also don't mind 1 or 2 players flat calling as I will then be all-in on the flop regardless due to pot/stack ratios, unless the texture is such that I can risk a free card by checking to tempt someone to move-in and reach out for the huge pot.

                        I agree that just moving all-in preflop is sometimes a good idea in the stated situation preflop, depending on the characteristics of table and psychology of the moment. I would certainly do it if I thought someone put me on a steal with that bet. That is concerned with specific situations. In general though against typical good players, I think overbetting teh pot upto 2X is the usually correct play.

                        Unless you want action (valid I suppose with AA, but I would disagree),
                        Well I want action from 1 or 2 opponents, (with 1 probably being preferred as I am not greedy ), where they are either all-in preflop or in a situation where me going all-in on flop is automatic.

                        Another reason to generally not go all-in on that depth of money would be that I would like to make that move with other hands and I would rather not do it all-in with that many chips in front of me.

                        If the 12k stack was a little shorter then I would probably move-in in general should I raise a group of limpers from the blinds. Usually when a 1.5X pot raise was a total bet of around 40% or more of my stack. It would probably look like a steal anyway on that stack size, at least to someone.

                        you are inviting an avalanche of calls with any bet other than all-in.
                        Against really bad players, then maybe, in which case all-in is probably best as someone is likely to call anyway. I would be interested why you think that would be the case against better players on that depth of money though? What is your thinking behind that statement?

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