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NLHE Tourney Hand

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  • NLHE Tourney Hand

    I was not involved with this hand. Just watching from the rail, but found it to be interesting...

    Blinds at T100/T200, no antes
    UTG limps. All fold to SB, who completes for T100. BB checks.
    Never seen BB before, UTG is rather loose and an ABC type player (will limp with QJs, KT, etc.). SB is one of the best Bay Area Tournament Players around and has won many limit and NL events.

    Flop comes A:h:9:c:6:h:
    Check, check, check.

    Turn comes 9:h:
    SB checks, BB hesitates and then bets T300 (his hand clutched back a little as he was deciding how much to bet). UTG folds quickly. Back to SB, who takes a VERY long time, shifting his chips back and forth. He check raises to T700. BB takes a quick peek at his cards and proceeds to come over the top all in for about T3,000 more. SB has about T2500 left in his stack and takes a peek at his cards one more time and decides to call fairly quickly.

    Cards turned over:
    SB has J9o
    BB has K9o

    River is Q:s:

    SB busts out. Watching from the rail, I was fairly certain neither had a flush, but suspected one had a big A and one had a 9. If you were the SB, would you call there? I think it's almost an automatic call there, because I'd certainly think somebody with a K9 or Q9 to take a stab at that pot 3 handed, so you have to figure your J9 to be ahead.

    What do you all think?


  • #2
    Ugh, That is why I hate playing SB, BB weak hands. You hit, but you never know whether the other blind got even luckier than you, or is just slightly unluckier than you.



    • #3
      This is why you don't call in the small blind with J9.(easier said than done) I think I would have went busted on this hand also. You figure even if the big blind does have a 9 --you have a pretty good kicker and assume that he would reraise all-in with any 9 here so he could have 9-2 thru 9T fairly easily. Once again though, he (me too) got what we deserved here by playing the J9 in the first place.



      • #4
        I would have been tempted to complete the bet as the SB and gotten my just desserts.. . Mathematically, it's the right play (I am sure Noodles will disagree, if I am incorrect on the math :P ) 5 to 1 on a one gapper.

        If UTG (sounds like a tight weak player) checks the flop, I probably would bet about $400 at this point. If I get raised or check-raised by UTG, I am out of there. If I get flat called, I am shuttting down. Probably the BB woud fold to the bet without an ace as his pots odds wouldn't justify a call to wait for trips (400 for 1000 pot) putting me on a weak ace and end of story. My kicker is too pathetic and they are no favorable draws to try to stay with this hand beyond the flop.

        BTW, great play by the BB as he figured he had the nuts on the turn at that point.


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cannedham
          I would have been tempted to complete the bet as the SB and gotten my just desserts.. . Mathematically, it's the right play (I am sure Noodles will disagree, if I am incorrect on the math :P ) 5 to 1 on a one gapper.
          I don't usually use pot odds in deciding whether to call preflop. That's a limit concept. Pot odds only matter to me in all-in decisions. Position over-rides the discount at big-bet. Implied odds and whatever the other one is called, are what matter when there is still money left to bet.

          As to J9 in the SB. Whether I would limp or fold would depend mainly on the depth of the money. With deep money I would usually fold although I may call depending on the exact situation at the time. Shallow money I would probably call as the hand values are closer to limit holdem.


          • #6

            If the UTG checks, then it's onto the turn. He acted last on the flop, since the other two in the hands were the blinds.


            It was still fairly early in the event...both blinds had around 3-4k and I think it was correct to complete with J9, seeing that it was around 3% of his stack.



            • #7
              No bet on the flop.....I would be shocked to see one of them have a big ace.


              • #8
                Early in the tourn with 3k/4k stacks, completing the bet is OK for J9o in my opinion. You're looking to get in cheap and hit the flop big.
                No straight or at least two-pair on the flop = No hit.
                With an Ace on the flop, you're in trouble, and should only stay in for free. Big Ace should bet the flop, so Ax is the only Ace you're likely against. With a "lucky" 9 on the turn, you have to determine how likely you're beat.

                A flopped set could have checked the flop, and now could be laying in wait - you have to be wary of the small BB bet. It could be baiting you to raise. A too-large BB bet would indicate a steal(or a clever fake of a steal, which is unlikely since someone with a boat wants to slow-play a limper, flop-checking "weak" hand).

                Two hearts could also check the flop, and now is looking to trap. This is like the flopped set except he has to worry about someone that has flopped a set and is now full or a higher flush.

                Otherwise, we're looking at kickers. Only A9, K9, Q9 have you beat, but they could bet something similiar to someone with a Ten kicker or less. They probably would not like to bet big because the likely caller(or raiser) of a large bet would have him beat. If he is not beat, then a large bet would only get called by a 9 with a weak kicker(if they chose to call at all). If he has the strong kicker he welcomes it, but a so-so kicker is a crap shoot and would not want a call. Maybe a weak kicker by the BB could be indicated by a larger bet(T2500+ to be larger than a large bet or T1000+ to be larger than a small bet). Again, I think a large bet is too risky here because a likely caller would have him beat. So, he's looking to bet something small to either have his opponents fold with nothing, call with Ax or less, or raise if he is badly beat. His bet should be small enough to release the hand if he is raised(a large amount), but not too small showing weakness inviting a steal attempt raise. Also, a too small bet would allow someone with a Ax or something else like one heart to see another card cheap that could beat you(say another Ace or a heart).

                So, any size bet on the Turn by the BB could be trouble for the SB. There's no way I'd re-raise. Call small bets on turn and river, and seriously consider folding to a large bet. Only a Jack or another 9 on the river should turn the SB aggressive. Sometimes the best thing to do is be passive and call down someone. If another heart comes on the river, it's too easy for you to be beat, so bluffing a flush is not a good option(I'm assuming the SB's Jack was not of hearts).

                Whenever you're up against a BB that saw the flop for free you have to be cautious. He most-likely missed the flop, but when he shows strength it could have hit him hard since he could have anything in his hand, even 96o.

                Since we are talking about early tournament strategy, you have to be cautious and not commit too many chips without the nuts. This is prime trapping time, and someone could be looking for a way to get you to put more chips into the pot than the stakes warrant. So, IMHO a raise on the Turn by the SB is a mistake especially only T700. If he is beat, this is just what the BB was looking for and re-raises T3000. This re-raise move by the BB without the flush or boat is fairly OK since he has the SB covered and is putting him on the elimination decision. A release here by the SB leaves him with T1500, which is not too short. If he only called on the Turn he could see the river and it wouldn't be so hard to release then and have T2200 left.

                This is a tricky situation, and others have suggested not to get involved with J9o in the SB to begin with. If you can handle it and not commit many chips without the nuts, it's worth a look.

                Scott "DocH"


                • #9
                  ... rather loose and an ABC type player (will limp with QJs, KT, etc.)...
                  "loose" and "ABC type" and "limp with KT" somehow seem like a very oxymoronic trio. Calling with J9o in the worst position at the table in a No Limit game is absolutely cukoo!

                  I can't believe that there is a serious/elaborate discussion about this. The consideration of the "pot odds" in a No Limit, out of position situation makes absolutely no sense. Maybe this player has won some tournaments but he will live to inhabit the rail if he plays NLHE like this. Even if he wins a huge jackpot, it will all go down the tubes over time.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dreams32097


                    It was still fairly early in the event...both blinds had around 3-4k and I think it was correct to complete with J9, seeing that it was around 3% of his stack.
                    Then I think I would have folded, but it was only 3 handed I suppose, so maybe a call. Probably depends on characteristics of BB and UTG.

                    Suited, I think I would have called, due to the fact the money is shallow enough to get all-in on the flop with a big draw. Though some people want to avoid draws in tournaments, so maybe even then a fold if you are not prepared to play for all your chips on the right flop. Although this also probably depends on opponents characteristics, particularly 3 handed.

                    Generally, the position is more important than the discount, so you should play tight out of the SB. Probably with the same standards as you would from early position at that texture table, but sometimes with slight adjustments depending on the extra information preflop.



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