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    As I stated in another post, I recently observed a good player and decided it would be impossible for me to imulate his play. To find another good player to observe (That might me a little looser), I did an analysis that I thought might be of interest to the group.

    I looked at the top 50 bankrolls and rankings for the top 100. For various reasons, I then calculated the average win per tournement for each player thinking that this might reflect the best poker players. Here are the names, average results, and number of tournements of everyone that averaged $100.00 or more. If I missed anyone I applogize.

    Top 100 Ranks:

    1) DocH $336.18 (98)
    2) Pokermats * 206.71 (257)
    3) GPD3 194.09 (45)
    4) Davbau 192.94 (70)
    5) Pspitainic * 176.27 (227)
    6) Noodles 169.50 (118)
    7) The Chuckles 154.61 (194)
    8) Kailyn 151.34 (58)
    9) Dealmein * 147.78 (190)
    10) Bobcat * 143.14 (187)
    11) Depraved 124.77 (128)
    12) Hitman * 106.50 (301)
    13) Aprillshowers 101.98 (241)
    14) Fair One 100.80 (50)

    * players that made both list but shown only once.

    Top 50 Bankrolls:

    1) Promos $341.39 (84)
    2) Jojob 195.10 (290)
    3) Jmuzzey 172.71 (766)
    4) Starrs 135.28 (244)
    5) Rio Rita 116.02 (312)
    6) Spiegal 113.30 (321)

    DocH, glad to see you playing again. Loved your profile.

    If anyone see Promos playing let me know.

    Good luck all, Big Bo

  • #2
    The PPT rank over at PSO detail will be a better rank than the one you used due to the effect of different buy-in amounts being removed.

    I know for a fact that watching at least one of those players will make you a worse player. Probably due to the fact that they are probably already worse than you. Sometimes results can give a false impression in the short run, especially with tournaments.

    Personally, the only player really worth watching at PSO is Apryll, though it wouldn't really be a good idea to watch her lately lol.

    If you really want to watch someone to learn, then I suggest you get over to pokerst*rs and watch the likes of nutnopair and fossilman in the tourneys. There are other top players and pros that play also but I don't have their names at hand.


    • #3
      Personally, the only player really worth watching at PSO is Apryll
      Utterly disagree.

      For starters, watching all the players here teaches you how to infer somebody's style, an invaluable skill in any tournament, be it online or B&M. Second, there are several other players here at PSO who do quite well at live games (cash and tournaments). Why are they not worth watching?

      I will say, however, that Apryll is on my list of players I never want to see at my table again



      • #4
        Originally posted by Jahana
        For starters, watching all the players here teaches you how to infer somebody's style, an invaluable skill in any tournament, be it online or B&M.
        Good point. I agree, watching any type of player will help in this sense.
        Originally posted by Jahana
        Second, there are several other players here at PSO who do quite well at live games (cash and tournaments). Why are they not worth watching?
        Well, I was just speaking from a personal point of view, which is why I said personally. But in answer to your question - Because they make too many fundamental errors. There may be one or two, whose games I have not seen enough of, such as yourself, that do not. I am talking big-bet here rather than limit.

        If this is borne in mind, and you are aware of these errors, then there are quite a few worth watching.

        I still say you are best off watching top players at a pay site. At PSO you have no idea whether they are playing their best game when you watch them. They could be experimenting, just passing the time, messing about, and who knows what else.

        This is still possible at a paysite, but watching the big buy-in tourneys will reduce the possibility somewhat compared to PSO.


        • #5

          Just curious, and relly do not mean it as a challenge, but merely an inquiry:

          Do you play live tourneys for buyins of greater than $500? Have you in the past? How many?

          Just wondering, because I do disgree with you on the quality of play of many of the people here.

          I am no expert, and have only be trying in earnest for about 2 years in live tourneys. I have entered about 20 events (have a wife, three kids, and my own business, so limited in time) with buyins of $500 to $1500. I have played in the Orleans Open, LA Poker Classic, World Series, Queens Classic, World Poker Finalsand am heading to the Bellagio Five Diamond Classic tonight. I have been lucky and made 2 final tables, and a 12th place money finish. I play the same way in these tourneys as I play here -- tight, but aggressive, but avoid big confrontations for all my chips. (And, before you ask -- no I do not think that I materially better than others, I just believe that multiple close decisions for all of your chips will generally lead to losses before the money, except in those rare instances when you "get lucky" and win 4 or 5 in a row of these confrontations -- I prefer better odds, and with patience I have generally been able to be find a better hand to play).

          My point, though, is not to talk about my own play -- it is to talk about what I witness here, and what I have witnessed in these tourneys. Since I play so tight, I have made it to the top 50% of all the tourneys I have entered but 3. I firmly believe that the play of the top 100-150 players here at the school in No-Limit (what I primarily enter in tourneys) as defined by PSO detail for No-Limit only, and including win%, money% and cum% (reasonable minds can disagree as to which is the most relavant) is absolutely on par with the play of any of the tourneys I have entered. Furthermore, there are players at the school who obviously do not try the hardest, or play their A game, game in and game out, but on any given tourney can play an excellent game.

          To say there are no players worth watching and learning from here is wrong -- I have learned tons of moves, positional plays, chip management, and other skills from watching and playing against the talented players at this school.

          And the beautiful thing about the school is there are so many players here who, in my opinion, have "twins" in the tourney world. From the in-your-face, aggressive style of JMuzzey, Freddieboy, Pokermats, to the cautious, wait-until-I-have-the-best-of-it styles of RGGator and hazyone, that allow these top players to consistently get into the final doings. From the tough, relentless, bet until you stop me styles of Apryll and Hitman, to the talented, able to change gears, and always find them at, or near the final table, JCastle, wstwst, Depraved, dreams, pspitalnic, dealmein, bumblebeeru, Clay Knight, starrs, cannedham, spenser, rosita, cockroach and lion. Finally, the players who are very tough always, but seem to have that something extra in the late rounds that allows them to win when they have chips like coolan, jojob, ironside, Big Jerry, Locutus, Buschman, Ineedajoker, stzai, bhat, and Sac.

          There are obviously many others, who are very tough here, and others who rank highly, but I haven't played against enough to personally know their game, and others that I apologize for not mentioning.

          My only point is that when I have sat down at live tourneys this year, I have been fortunate to play against everyone currently ranked in the top 20 in the Cardplayer rankings, and they no longer intimidate me, because I truly believe they are at best only marginally better than the top players in this school. Don't get me wrong, they would most likely destroy me in a ring game! But in a freezeout, no-limit tourney format, I would put the top players at this school against them and let the cards fall where they may!

          Enough ranting. This is really just a way of saying "thank you poker school online!" I have a long way to go to get my game where I want it! But, I love playing against the tough competition here at the school, and it just keeps getting tougher. And I, for one, thank all you tough players for making me better!



          • #6
            It doesn't matter if I have played 0 $500 tournaments or 100, a fundamental error is a fundamental error. I did not say they were bad players. I am not talking about styles. I am talking about fundamental poker principles, and they are broken time after time by the 'top' players I have seen at the school. It is no big deal. There is no shame in it. I was not putting them down.

            I was at the final table with jojob the other day and they impressed me greatly. Meybe they are a player that does not make these errors. I don't know. Lion has also impressed me greatly in the past at a final table.

            Apryll is still more advanced than both of them when playing seriously. If that is an insult, then you take it the wrong way. I do not think it is.


            I said personally.

            I said if it is borne in mind, plenty of players are worth watching.

            I said there may be players that I do not know enough about that do not make these mistakes.

            What more do you want from me? In what way have I disagreed with what you wrote? Do you want me to lie?

            I do not understand your statement at the end about the tough competition, especialy coming from a player as good as you. Apart from a few players, it just isn't. The overall standard of play is pure crap.

            On the subject of close gambles for all your chips. At the school, you are mathematically right to avoid them, as I would be if I took it seriously. In the big real world tournaments, you are incorrect to do so, assuming you are not one of the best players in the field. This would not be the case if the school was of the same standard.

            Your actual results in these tournaments make no difference to the accuracy of the above statement.

            PS. I still remember my promise. I intend to get it done over the next day or two.


            • #7

              I fear you may have taken my response personally, Noodles. As I said, I was not challenging you if you have not played in big buy-in real money tourneys. I simply wanted to know if you have actually played/watched/witnessed the actual tourney play of big bet tourneys -- not $10-$30 buy-ins where players are more likely to play looseley and go for the big money, but $500 or more.

              I didn't ask because I didn't believe you are qualified to opine, only to know if your knowledge is more book based, or more play based. Because I think if students read the books, and read your posts, and other material, they would be shocked to see the actual play in these tourneys. Even at $1000 buy-ins there are still maniacs who bluff wuth nothing, call-in bets with 3rd pair, bet all-in with trips after flop brings 4th spade. Some of these plays are brilliant reads (or so they would tell us), and some of them are people are humans and, just as here at school, there are all kind of players because there are all kinds of humans.

              You are just dead wrong if you don't think there are good players here at the school. Huk has done great. Depraved has done great. Apryll has done great. Rg has done great. Pspitalnic destroyed the sats at Foxwoods, just like he does here, and finished in the money at the WSOP. Estrict took a 6th at Queens Classic. Our Minnesota contingent is destroying the Canterbury. JMuzzey owns the Chicago tourneys, and others from CHAPS are not far behind. Wiscer has kicked butt this year. And I am sure there are many others who have been humble about their victories (although I wish players would let us know when they do well, because it proves it can be done!)

              You say players make fundamental errors here -- who the heck doesn't in every field and enterprise, including the pros! Although you disagree with Phil's style of bigbet poker, I think any objective examination of his results would conclude he has had a great and fruitful career.

              I love reading your posts because they are thought-provoking. But I fear that too many players will read your posts and conclude that the school is a waste of time. That couldn't be further from the truth. I watch a lot of tourneys here even when I am not playing because I want to see what works and what doesn't. There are some excellent players (and many more who are excellent when they focus). A beginner can rise to the next level by watching the play of those ranked higher. An intermediate can become better by watching final table, and late action to understand the intricacies of late play, how to make final tables, how to get to the final table, and how to win. And, excellent players can become better by honing their skills against all the types of players here at the school -- maniacs, ABC players, "all-in" type players, ladder climbers, and consistent winners.

              Another area that does not get enough credit here at the school is the sat play. It has improved REMARKABLY over the last few months. I have played in a lot of $50-100 buyin sats at tourneys and done well with the EXACT approach I use here at the school, and I think sats in real money games at casinos are WAY easier than here because there are so many fish who get pot-committed, believe they have to put it all in and get snapped by someone who has trapped them. Likewise aggressive players can run over sats in real money tourneys by doubling early and pounding away. I would personally stake pspitalnic, hitman, jcastle, apryll, dreams, hazy, rg, dealmein, midge, Ranger, Az, bumble, pokerkitten and Babe60 (if she promises to play her best game lol), (and a lot of others that I apologize for overlooking, or haven't played against enough against) against any $50-$100 buyin, and I promise you I will be a net winner!

              Noodles, you ask what more do I want from you, and my answer is nothing. I do not want you to agree withme, I am not looking for you to change your mind. I merely offer an opposing point of view from a player who is learning this great game called poker, loves playing it here, and has played it with the big boys and girls (although admittedly fresh to that brave new world of big buy-in tourneys).

              I am a hopeless optimist. I put myself through college and law school by studying hard and working multiple jobs. I believe that with hard work, book study and real world experience, anything is possible. I think poker is the same way (or at least I hope).

              Finally with regards to your statement that too many good players make "fundamental errors" in big bet poker. We will tackle that statement when get back from Vegas, but I disagree with some concepts that you believe are "fundamental." The "maths" of it are NOT the final answer.

              I have earned a tidy sum in real estate by reading every book I could find on the subject, talking to successful investors, and seeing what types of investing styles work. At first I was confused because there were different sources that stated different real estate investing strategies were "the best," and in some instances the "fundamental" way of making money. I became successful when I realized there are countless ways to skin the real estate cat. Some people take many small risks with big edges. Some roll their whole bankroll when they have the best of it. Some walk away from "virtual" certainties when the risk of losing everything is not worth the big gains. I found my own way to make money based on my beliefs and feelings based on the "maths" of it, the EV, and trying to "get the best" of others who were so stuck in one way of thinking that I could exploit their weaknesses.

              I apologize for rambling and wiil end now. I appreciate your posts Noodles as an excellent source of thoughts on a wide range of topics, but they are just that ONE way of looking at issues.

              It would be wrong for players to feel the competition here does not compare with that of big bet, tourney poker in bigger buy-in poker tourneys because it simply isn't true. In my opinion. And, that, Noodles, is where you and I will have to agree to disagree.

              Nothing personal!