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  • PLHE

    Online Real $$$ Pot Limit HE tourney. Fairly early, about 20% of the field gone. Starting chips is fairly shallow, $1500.

    I am in the BB with KK. A very dense player brings it in for a small raise. One caller. I raise the pot, total bet $190. Dense player calls. The other player folds. Around $400 in pot.

    This leaves me with with $1060, and dense player with $460.

    The flop comes AQ5.


    Is there any alternative to betting the pot and putting them virtually all in. If they have a weak Ace they will bet it, never considering I might have an AK or AQ.


    I did put them virtually all in, they reraise their last $60. I know I am beat but at this point I have astronomical odds, and the $60 call is automatic.

    So the only question I have is the initial post flop bet.


    Randy


    BTW: For the curious, they had A6, but it was suited. :wink:

  • #2
    I wouldn't have even gone in on the flop like that - I'd make a smaller bet - 100 to 200, maybe even check, and fold to a reraise, not worth risking another 500 of my chips to an idiot.

    Something apryll and I have talked about is not being so aggressive with KK preflop (meaning maybe a 1/2 pot raise instead of a pot raise) and then when no ace flops - then pushing the issue. But it's hard to not bet the pot when you have the boys. Just an idea you might want to consider.

    Hazy

    Comment


    • #3
      i am not sure if i would raise the pot from the BB with kings, i'd probably check and hope to flop an overpair and hope somebody hit a pair and to get it in that way. on the A high flop, i probably just give up...let them bet, if you sense weakness, check raise over the top, but being that it was an online event, i am not sure if you could pick up a tell...maybe YOU could have, but not I, lol...good luck, the jam always sticks...

      Comment


      • #4
        I feel like you HAVE to raise before the flop in order to be able to bet enough on a favorable flop to drive out many drawing hands.

        Comment


        • #5
          You do have to raise - especially in a pot limit game, unless short handed against an aggressive opponent, or unless in EP with a maniac at the table who you know you can come over the top for - since in pot limit it is seldom possible to get it all in before the flop with pocket kings (unless you are me and manage to get it all in against Ace Jack and lose, which is where Apryll and I started talking about the 1/2 pot raise preflop rather than committing yourself regardless) - but the amount of the raise is something that is debatable.

          Comment


          • #6
            Before the flop, the question is "do I want to slow play this hand". Do you want to try to maximize your win, or reduce your risk by moving in befor the flop?

            Comment


            • #7
              Preflop:

              Dreams said:

              I'm not sure if i would raise the pot from the BB with kings, i'd probably check and hope to flop an overpair and hope somebody hit a pair and to get it in that way.
              I got to disagree here. On the flop, I have the best hand. So I should maximize my win as Jellow said was one of my options.


              Postflop:

              Hazy said:
              I wouldn't have even gone in on the flop like that - I'd make a smaller bet - 100 to 200, maybe even check, and fold to a reraise, not worth risking another 500 of my chips to an idiot.

              Dreams said:
              on the A high flop, i probably just give up...let them bet, if you sense weakness, check raise over the top, but being that it was an online event, i am not sure if you could pick up a tell...maybe YOU could have, but not I, lol...
              This is maybe what I should have done here.


              Thanks for the comments, always learning from you guys.


              Randy/Randall (Noodles, your comments?)

              Comment


              • #8
                i think there is an argument for maximizing your profit from checking before the flop. if i know you, you must have been playing fairly tight, so what will a raise from the blind position mean??? obviously a big pair...by checking, they have no clue as to where you stand and say the flop comes Txx and one of those boneheads has something like QT or JT, you can milk it on the flop and turn and then just move in on the river, barring a scare card, to give the impression that you missed whatever you were chasing...this player doesnt seem to be able to lay down top pair anyhow and this is why i think this is the best option. you minimize your risk, but also have the possibility of trapping somebody for their entire stack if you play it correctly postflop.

                j.a.m.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dreams said:
                  by checking, they have no clue as to where you stand and say the flop comes Txx and one of those boneheads has something like QT or JT, you can milk it on the flop and turn and then just move in on the river, barring a scare card, to give the impression that you missed whatever you were chasing...this player doesnt seem to be able to lay down top pair anyhow and this is why i think this is the best option. you minimize your risk, but also have the possibility of trapping somebody for their entire stack if you play it correctly postflop.


                  OK, I see your point now.

                  And here is how I analyze it:

                  --is if is this guy is such an idiot, and he was... Then he is going to call preflop and I max my profits with higher risk.

                  --If he misses on the flop, then I catch a small pot, but have minimized my risk.

                  --If he catches on the flop (not an Ace), then I maybe mazimize my profits, while taking a much smaller risk.


                  I do not think there is a correct answer here.


                  Thanks,

                  Randy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    On that depth of money, pot it preflop. On the flop, unless you know the opponent very well, generally bet pot and call if they go with it.

                    With an ace on board, usually only check it into a large field. Though if it was more than headsup with that depth of money, you are playing with donkeys. In fact, not being all-in preflop here tells us all wee need to know about the quality of opponent, unless they have maybe decided to slowplay AA. Headsup, with that pot to stack ratio, you bet and pray, regardless of what comes, unless you really know the player like the back of your hand and will know for certain what they have by their action after you check. They would have to be truly, incredibly, bad if that was the case.

                    If they are loose enough to call with A6s then they are loose enough to call with a lower pp, or maybe non-ace. But, again, if you know the player well and know they only call with an ace preflop, then you can give it up. Though, whether there is a player that fits that description, I don't know.

                    If you are vastly superior to the field, i.e. they are all donkeys, then you may wish to maybe reduce your risk by just flat calling preflop. But in that spot, you do risk getting outflopped by the 3rd player. I would prefer to do that headsup with position.

                    Having said that, with this depth of money, an early raise, 1 caller, and you out of position. Even when you are vastly superior over field, you should probably play to get all-in preflop. If they are that bad, you are over 4-1 favourite the vast amount of the time when called so the edge usually is too big to pass up. When vastly superior, u avoid close gambles for all your chips, but KK doesn't come into that category as there can only be 1 overcard, and that is too big an edge to pass up probably.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Noodles
                      ... you should probably play to get all-in preflop.
                      It's pot-limit. You can't.

                      If there's a harder game than PLHE I can't find it. The relative cheapness of preflop calls from 'substandard' hands which have huge implied odds means you're frequently vulnerable to the kind of situation Randy encountered. Just the way it goes.

                      The half-pot preflop raise that's been discussed is probably right, but it's damn hard to avoid that "raise pot" button. This might be where b+m play might encourage better discipline. At PSO I'm sure I'd pot in and then think 'Oh shit' when the Ace appears.

                      On that flop, though, your opps short stack does mean they'll bet/call with any Ace. So checking might be in order as (as you say) they won't care about the kicker. If they played a junk Ace you'll get to know about it and can fold. But you open yourself up to a bluff or folding when they bet their QJ ...

                      Just a bitch of a situation, but we know you can handle it 8)

                      cheers

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rosita
                        Originally posted by Noodles
                        ... you should probably play to get all-in preflop.
                        It's pot-limit. You can't.
                        I didn't say you raise all-in, I said you play to get all-in, which means raising the full pot, as that should usually commit the opponent to pushing in or folding on that depth of money.

                        If there's a harder game than PLHE I can't find it.
                        There isn't that much difference between no-limit and pot limit. About 90% the same. The 2 main things that immediately come to mind, that dictate the differences in your play between the 2 games, are the price you can charge the opponent preflop, and the inability to overbet the pot when your hand would desire to be all-in.

                        At PSO I'm sure I'd pot in and then think 'Oh shit' when the Ace appears.

                        On that flop, though, your opps short stack does mean they'll bet/call with any Ace. So checking might be in order as (as you say) they won't care about the kicker. If they played a junk Ace you'll get to know about it and can fold. But you open yourself up to a bluff or folding when they bet their QJ ...
                        The full pot re-raise preflop committs the rest of the money going in on the flop regardless. You should know it and so should the opponent. Which is why most opponents on their stack size will usually go with it and push in or fold. Though they may just call if they are first to act on the flop headsup, so they can give you the oportunity of mistakenly folding on the flop.

                        The play is usually automatic if you are just called by that opponent with those stacks/pot. The decison has already been made preflop, in general. Don't complicate simple things.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As Chris is doing PLHE training tables, I think this deserves a bump.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Very old post, but I'll offer my opinion. I think the preflop raise is fine. After the flop, if this 'dense' player is at all the betting/bluffing type, check it to him and let him hang himself if he doesn't have an ace. You are either WAY ahead or WAY behind.....by checking, you maximize the chance that he'll bet if he doesn't have an ace. If he has the ace, you have to call anyways, so let your opponent do the betting if he has a queen or nothing at all so that you win the biggest pot when you're actually winning. By betting out, it's likely he'll only call with an ace. Less upside to this play.

                            Now against a calling station, just bet out and live with the results, because there's nothing you can do here.


                            I agree.....if there is a harder game than PLHE, I can't find it either. I just haven't figured it out yet! It's such a tough game, and in my mind this should be the world championship event (but that will never happen because it's not sexy enough for TV).

                            Tim

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rggator
                              I do not think there is a correct answer here.
                              That's what makes it so interesting to discuss.

                              Dreams kept saying "check the BB", but since "donkey" had put in a small raise, it was really a reraise or flat call decision. I think either one can be successfully argued, though Noodles made a very good point that you don't want that third player seeing a flop. If it was ONLY the "donkey" player opening betting, and everyone else folding, I think flat call with KK in the BB is worth considering. Then you can milk a ragged undercard flop for high profit, or jam the pot FTA if you think that will induce a bad call or raise.

                              I like the idea of leading on the flop with 100 if you are virtually certain that the "donkey" has Ax but doesn't know how to play it. He might just call behind and let you see another card for cheap! It's basically a choice between 460 now (400 bet pot, reraise 60 allin, call), or 100 per street to catch lucky. Of course, if he raises allin on any street, its not much different than putting him allin on flop. Again, this is if you are virtually certain he has Ax, and you are prepared to fold to save chips with little risk of laying down the best hand.

                              If you aren't sure he has the overpair, you have to get allin on the flop and hope for the best. It would be a huge mistake to lay down what could be the best hand, and you don't want any scary cards on later streets to discourage you from playing your hand.

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