PokerStars homepage
  • If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

DEBATE - ITM vs 1ST place.....

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • DEBATE - ITM vs 1ST place.....

    Hi all, I would like to debate about itm vs 1st place. And hope all will share their views on this subject.

    My reason, tonight I was playing well and chipped up close to itm in the 1.5k gauranteed.

    I sat with AK in my hand faced by a min raiser and the blinds were increasing.

    Now if I had wanted too, I could of easily drifted to the top 100-200 players left.

    However my decission was to go all in, to try and become one of the cheap leaders giving my self a chance at winning first place.
    This in fact was the wrong decission at the time as I lost and missed the itm.

    But now i have sat back and thought about it was it the wrong decission to go for first?

    I know I can play good enough regular to itm and grind up a tidy BR.

    SO as to the question itm vs 1st place your views please.

  • #2
    Hey holdemace

    Why don't you present us with the math. What did 1st place payout and what was a mincash? First in an MTT usually covers a pretty huge pile of mincashes!

    That being said, if I had an decent stack, I wouldn't have been jamming AK pre flop on a flip, especially on the bubble.

    GL!

    Roland GTX

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi greg, I think you missed the point of the debate question some where, it was not on the bubble posistion but getting close to clarify that part.


      I find that if short stacked in the itm posistions, you will get called by dominating stacks.

      Sometimes multiple dominating stacks will call you often with worse but lessening your chances of winning the all in.

      ITMS are not that hard to grind out, but coming first place is.

      I often see players with huge stacks as im grinding to make itm, so is not preferable to go for it as such at an earlier stage. Lets say somewhere in the middle section of a tournement or 2 3rds?


      Or should players be happy with making itm as that is not a loss and can soon become a tidy amount of BR?

      MY decission was to go for it, i put myself on two overs and took a gamble, he had qq which i pretty much expected.

      IF i had hit my hand maybe I would of been seen the final table!

      People who win these tourneys must go for it some where at some stage?

      Comment


      • #4
        I just look for good ev+ spots to play. I don't stress about having a "big stack" in tourneys. Yes, it is nice to have, but it is not a goal in itself. I do get stressed when my stack drops below 50% of the average stack size though. Then I am more willing to gamble on doubling up.

        FYI, in the MTT that I won, I had an average or short stack pretty much the whole tourney (3000 entrants and a turbo). With 50 players remaining I was in 46th place! I didn't get a big stack until we were down to the final 4 players and I knocked out two of them becoming chip leader going into HU play.

        Roland GTX

        Comment


        • #5
          grrr

          http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=9B2A29D093

          this is an hand im talking about for example, this happened no more than 5 mins ago.

          2 people from itm,grrr how many times as this got to happen before i win one.

          Any way, no one folding here right? no way.

          Like i said im always ahead but some how always seem to lose when it counts.

          And people wonder why i question integrity at times.

          But never the less i will not stress over it, i guess i had my spider senses turned off.

          its was a 1k gauranteed with lots of runners 55 c buyin.

          SO i see itm in this one for example as probably 1 doller, so do i waste that AK oppurtunity?

          Comment


          • #6
            And yes greg i have come back from low stack a few times, and well done on a mtt win they are not easy.

            And yes +ev is important.

            When i want to play for just itm posistions im happy to stay at the tail end all the way as long as i have got enough BBs to keep going.

            Comment


            • #7
              Min-raising into a deep stacked bb and several other deep stacks still to act, while you are getting short AND in early positon is just asking for trouble imo.

              I would have just pushed all in preflop. The pot is unopened giving you first in vig. You seem to be under the average stack size and there are several big stacks left to act. I can't see myself raising 10%-20% of my stack and then folding. So, get max fold equity and max value if you get called by getting it all in there.

              GL holdemace!

              Roland GTX

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by holdemace486 View Post
                SO as to the question itm vs 1st place your views please.
                Neither. My answer... + ROI. The ROI IS the bottom line. It's what matters.

                Players that continually min-cash will be behind in the long run.... players that play like a maniac and get lucky and win one (and bust early the overwhelming majority of the time) will also be behind in the long run. Neither style will be a winning player over time.

                The key is consistant deep runs.

                John (JWK24)
                Super-Moderator



                6 Time Bracelet Winner


                Comment


                • #9
                  hmmmm jw, interesting, so you are saying dont worry about min itm, dont worry about winning.

                  Worry more about surving the longest if i can put it that way?

                  And for the record the beats are expected, using good BR management, well some BR management keeps you in a healthy BR.

                  That was a beat, but not really a bad beat, and that was after winning about ten dollers on the 1c 2c cash, so was a free tourney as such.

                  And yes roland i did think about pushing pre-flop, but considered i did have fold equaity if i missed the flop.
                  Last edited by holdemace486; Thu Nov 08, 2012, 09:40 PM. Reason: typo cant remember how spell surviving?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by holdemace486 View Post
                    Hi all, I would like to debate about itm vs 1st place. And hope all will share their views on this subject.

                    My reason, tonight I was playing well and chipped up close to itm in the 1.5k gauranteed.

                    I sat with AK in my hand faced by a min raiser and the blinds were increasing.

                    Now if I had wanted too, I could of easily drifted to the top 100-200 players left.

                    However my decission was to go all in, to try and become one of the cheap leaders giving my self a chance at winning first place.
                    This in fact was the wrong decission at the time as I lost and missed the itm.

                    But now i have sat back and thought about it was it the wrong decission to go for first?

                    I know I can play good enough regular to itm and grind up a tidy BR.

                    SO as to the question itm vs 1st place your views please.

                    It can change in any individual tourney due to structure of the pay outs.

                    But as a general rule of thumb MTT's are meant to be shipped. So if it comes down to taking a sensible risk that may knock me out of a min-cash for a shot to get a big bunch of chips to set me up for a FT run then I'm pretty much taking that risk every time.

                    This doesn't mean one should be cavalier about risking min-cashes near the bubble and every MTT we play is it's own creature and we have to react to the realities of the situation. There's sensible risk and there's being a lunkhead.

                    Instead of looking at it on a one by one tourney level I would suggest that you get results for at least a couple hundred MTT's. If you see that you're making it in the money at a clip over 25% but are still underwater on your ROI then you're obviously holding on too tight and over emphasizing min-cashing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      what do you mean by 25%, does that mean 25% my initail buyin?
                      profit.

                      AND yes moxie you hit it spot on, im to cavalier at times that does cost me . Great stuff again mox tyvm

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/blogs/post/?id=30006
                        Head Live Trainer
                        Check out my Videos

                        4 Time Bracelet Winner



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          thx for the link dave going read it now, just finished off in a second place lol in 45ppl sng while reading and posting on here lol.

                          Inspired again to try to do well ty all

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I must of mist that post Dave, very impressing reading and some great points that says it all.

                            However some more to add for your great thoughts.

                            What about a player who grinds, i dont just mean grinding the tables but also grinding a BR.

                            Lets say I min cash in a mtt at lets say 75c profit.

                            That 75c I then wisely play 3 25c sngs cashing in lets say 2 of them.

                            I then still have my initail mtt buyin plus i have accumilated from the sngs.

                            I then lets say have 1.60 for example

                            i then buyin for 80 c and double up and leave on a 1c 2c cash game.

                            Winning bits but gradually boosting my BR.

                            I agree totally of as late, if you want to win big and get them first places you have to take calculated risks as i feel i have been doing.

                            Sometimes a min itm is better than nothing.

                            I agree that the winning players who have big wins will have a lower itm than the itm grinders.

                            But also think that grinding a BR as well can lead to a decent profit as i have done a few times.

                            Maybe its a question about how much BR you can afford and can you afford to take them risks.

                            If for example its your last buyin maybe an itm would do.

                            Either way I have read some absolute great knowledge tonight and appreciate it all.

                            P>S if my post is a bit mixed up forgive me its 7 am here lol

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by holdemace486 View Post
                              itm grinders.
                              I really don't think you get it ace. "Grinding" implies someone who is mashing out a profit over volume. Someone who is "grinding itm" in large field mtt's is a losing player. Did you catch the part in my blog where I found a player who was ITM in large field events a whopping half the time? If you're going to call anyone an "itm grinder" it would be that player, and yet they were losing money. That's what -ROI means.

                              If for example its your last buyin maybe an itm would do.
                              Of course, if you don't cash you're bust. Then again putting your case money, 100% of your bankroll on a single buy in large field mtt is foolish, no?

                              If you are a min-cash grinder, then don't play large field MTT's because you will always be a long term loser at them. Play small fields where min-cashing is rewarded more... 9 mans-45 mans at most imo. For large fields play satellites, where everyone gets the same prize and you don't have to play to win. And play some form of cash games, where once you learn how to be a winning player the profit is more steady and variance lower than the large swings that come with big field mtt action.
                              Head Live Trainer
                              Check out my Videos

                              4 Time Bracelet Winner



                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X

                              X Cookies Information

                              We have placed cookies on your computer to improve your experience on our website. You can change your cookie settings at any time. Otherwise, we'll assume you're OK to continue.