PokerStars homepage
  • If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Just a bit of courtesy.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Just a bit of courtesy.

    After going through the HA section I've found that many members won't respond back. WHY NOT??? These members who take their time to review your hand and evaluate your play deserve more than that. It only takes a minute to say a simple "thank you" for their work and input. evil:
    Join My Home Game Club - The Joker's Wild

  • #2
    I have my own thoughts on why this is, but I don't need my hand slapped anymore from the forum police.

    My thoughts regarding this topic would surely attract a lot of negativity and posts from other members that would have me wanting to provide proof of my findings or that it's my opinion and is so far from the truth that I don't know what I am talking about, I may be fairly new to this, but I am far from being naive, or stupid when it comes to why some will analyse a hand to begin with. I am sure most are sincere and are meaning no harm when doing so. A lot of the long drawn explanations of some of the hands from certain analyzers can be quite over whelming to say the least. Simply applying the K.I.S.S formula to explain most of the hands would be a lot more effective when it comes to newer players just wanting a quick explanation and not a full blown essay.


    Derty

    Comment


    • #3
      +1

      You both bring very valid points about that forum.

      I find some members post and respond not to debate or learn but to feed the ego or validate what they see as right. If you dont agree with them you tend to not get a response or thanks.
      Personally I dont post about Hands because I did notice some members spam in a sense when they post in that forum. Before you have responded to their first post they have two more.
      That tells me they dont really want to learn.

      The long winded responses have always been a issue with me but new players seem to like them.
      After all you just have to look when they do respond who they are thanking and quite often it isnt the person with a short response. If your not a mod,new members tend not to give your response much weight.
      Keeping it simple by far is the best way to approach many posts,but you have to let things run there course here. No matter of debate will get PSO to acknowledge a issue.
      I stepped down from that forum when I realized that one mod was sitting in their all day and would respond right or wrong within a minute of the post.Or I would have to read a book to see if I agree with what is being posted. So I stepped away not wanting to make waves,which is all I do now.
      Ironic that this forum has gone totally away from what we started with and now caters to a more dummied down version of the membership.

      Comment


      • #4
        I get your comment dertymcgerty, but I tend to disagree...


        ...since that comment was likely directed at me (I'm not being overly sensitive or paranoid, I fully recognize my particular posting style might be "over whelming" to some), I'd like to explain why...
        (please note: I am not offended at all by the inference of your post)

        COULD I answer HA posts in a shorter manner...sure.

        But to me, what purpose does it serve a newer player to say something like:

        "Don't shove all in on top set when it is the nuts. That only costs you money."

        That is short, that might be a complete answer, but it is not an answer which tells the poster WHY he shouldn't shove in that spot.

        If that person is a newer player, don't you think he might want to know WHY he shouldn't shove there, and HOW it is costing him money?

        While an answer like that short one might help the new player in a the exact same spot in the future, it does not really give him a basis to judge a situation which might be slightly different.

        Since there are so many potential variations to situations in poker, if you receive an answer simply telling you WHAT to do, without any reference to WHY you should be doing it, it is quite possible that the person trying to USE the information will mis-apply it. When they mis-apply it, there is a strong chance they might BLAME the HA forum, because they just did what they were told to do in there.

        consider it like the parable about teaching a man to fish...

        If you give a man a fish, he eats today.
        If you TEACH a man to fish, he will eat forever.

        From my personal view point, if you simply tell someone WHAT to do differently in a HA question, you are helping him in JUST that same spot...

        But if you tell him WHY he should do something differently as well, and include links to info that supports that, you give him the basis to reason for himself in any SIMILAR situation...and make the necessary adjustments.

        ...of course the usefulness of my approach implies the person posting is truly trying to work on his game, and is willing to put in the study required to ABSORB the thoughts that were put out...

        Do my posts contain a huge density of information at times...yes.

        But if you read them, I try to really stick to only a couple of critical points that I EXPLAIN.
        Other than that, I tend to show some "processes", like pot odds calculations, or ranging percentages, but do not usually go into HOW those were done (unless that was the point of the question asked).

        If a poster does not understand HOW those processes work, they may not tend to help a whole lot, but those processes may help OTHERS who read the post to see why I arrived at my suggestions. For the poster though, even if they are not ready to USE those processes now, they are at least getting an inkling that such processes EXIST, and that may peak their curiosity about learning how to use them...right?

        Finally, while my posts SEEM long, in reality they are rarely more than 1500 or 2000 words in length, even for the massive ones. That word count equates to maybe 1.5 to 2 pages in a book, at MAXIMUM. When you consider that even very SHORT magazine articles are around 10k to 12k words, what I write is really not THAT LONG.

        I have noted that the internet has seemed to engender a certain amount of mental "laziness"in people. Perhaps laziness is a harsh word, and it might be better to say the immediacy of internet communications have led people to believe that they are working HARDER than they think they are in reading a 500 word post. The fact is, reading this probably does not take people more than a minute or 2...is that REALLY too much time to ask someone to invest in their own poker knowledge expansion when THEY asked a question?

        When they ask that question, as an analyzer I feel I should give them as complete an answer as possible, and doing less than that is no real service at all.

        I notice once again I have taken what could have been a very SHORT answer, and blown it all out of shape again. I guess I am incorrigible!

        But to my way of thinking, what I have put up here is far more communicative of my view point than answering this question something like this:

        "I write long answers because I think anyone posting for advice on the HA forum deserves a complete answer. Giving them anything less than that is doing them a dis-service, because there would be too much room for them to mis-apply the info. It is a responsibility I feel when passing along thoughts on poker that the person NOT mis-understand me, as if I answer less than clearly, I could confuse them more".

        There, simple and sweet; a LOT shorter than what I wrote above too.

        ...but if you do not have an inkling of the reasons why I said what I did in that tiny post, you might think I feel the way I expressed there for reasons OTHER than my actual reasons. If you cared enough to ask a question, or make a statement, I feel yo have a right to not know just what I think, but WHY I think that...

        ...and the only way to communicate that sort of info is to make a post that is longer than normal.

        See?
        Double Bracelet Winner

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Deleted user View Post
          +1 You both bring very valid points about that forum. I find some members post and respond not to debate or learn but to feed the ego or validate what they see as right. If you dont agree with them you tend to not get a response or thanks. Personally I dont post about Hands because I did notice some members spam in a sense when they post in that forum. Before you have responded to their first post they have two more. That tells me they dont really want to learn. The long winded responses have always been a issue with me but new players seem to like them. After all you just have to look when they do respond who they are thanking and quite often it isnt the person with a short response. If your not a mod,new members tend not to give your response much weight. Keeping it simple by far is the best way to approach many posts,but you have to let things run there course here. No matter of debate will get PSO to acknowledge a issue. I stepped down from that forum when I realized that one mod was sitting in their all day and would respond right or wrong within a minute of the post.Or I would have to read a book to see if I agree with what is being posted. So I stepped away not wanting to make waves,which is all I do now. Ironic that this forum has gone totally away from what we started with and now caters to a more dummied down version of the membership.
          I've just started using the HA section this weekend In the beginning I too was paranoid as Derty had expressed which made me think that the better players are there not to give advice but more to work angles against other players who are trying to learn and would be hitting the table soon with their money. I even considered that Cookies could have been doing that while helping me in the beginning with advice (before we had a HA section here) This just isn't true Not for Cookies or anyone else reviewing hands Some might doubt me but I would assure them that these players who ARE better than them can take their chips even if they never seen you or your hands before so learn all you can before you meet them on the felt. It's your best hope. hey cookies, we need to get together online sometime soon I miss railing and talking to you about plays. evil:
          Join My Home Game Club - The Joker's Wild

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JDean View Post
            I get your comment dertymcgerty, but I tend to disagree... ...since that comment was likely directed at me (I'm not being overly sensitive or paranoid, I fully recognize my particular posting style might be "over whelming" to some), I'd like to explain why... (please note: I am not offended at all by the inference of your post) COULD I answer HA posts in a shorter manner...sure. But to me, what purpose does it serve a newer player to say something like: "Don't shove all in on top set when it is the nuts. That only costs you money." That is short, that might be a complete answer, but it is not an answer which tells the poster WHY he shouldn't shove in that spot. If that person is a newer player, don't you think he might want to know WHY he shouldn't shove there, and HOW it is costing him money? While an answer like that short one might help the new player in a the exact same spot in the future, it does not really give him a basis to judge a situation which might be slightly different. Since there are so many potential variations to situations in poker, if you receive an answer simply telling you WHAT to do, without any reference to WHY you should be doing it, it is quite possible that the person trying to USE the information will mis-apply it. When they mis-apply it, there is a strong chance they might BLAME the HA forum, because they just did what they were told to do in there. consider it like the parable about teaching a man to fish... If you give a man a fish, he eats today. If you TEACH a man to fish, he will eat forever. From my personal view point, if you simply tell someone WHAT to do differently in a HA question, you are helping him in JUST that same spot... But if you tell him WHY he should do something differently as well, and include links to info that supports that, you give him the basis to reason for himself in any SIMILAR situation...and make the necessary adjustments. ...of course the usefulness of my approach implies the person posting is truly trying to work on his game, and is willing to put in the study required to ABSORB the thoughts that were put out... Do my posts contain a huge density of information at times...yes. But if you read them, I try to really stick to only a couple of critical points that I EXPLAIN. Other than that, I tend to show some "processes", like pot odds calculations, or ranging percentages, but do not usually go into HOW those were done (unless that was the point of the question asked). If a poster does not understand HOW those processes work, they may not tend to help a whole lot, but those processes may help OTHERS who read the post to see why I arrived at my suggestions. For the poster though, even if they are not ready to USE those processes now, they are at least getting an inkling that such processes EXIST, and that may peak their curiosity about learning how to use them...right? Finally, while my posts SEEM long, in reality they are rarely more than 1500 or 2000 words in length, even for the massive ones. That word count equates to maybe 1.5 to 2 pages in a book, at MAXIMUM. When you consider that even very SHORT magazine articles are around 10k to 12k words, what I write is really not THAT LONG. I have noted that the internet has seemed to engender a certain amount of mental "laziness"in people. Perhaps laziness is a harsh word, and it might be better to say the immediacy of internet communications have led people to believe that they are working HARDER than they think they are in reading a 500 word post. The fact is, reading this probably does not take people more than a minute or 2...is that REALLY too much time to ask someone to invest in their own poker knowledge expansion when THEY asked a question? When they ask that question, as an analyzer I feel I should give them as complete an answer as possible, and doing less than that is no real service at all. I notice once again I have taken what could have been a very SHORT answer, and blown it all out of shape again. I guess I am incorrigible! But to my way of thinking, what I have put up here is far more communicative of my view point than answering this question something like this: "I write long answers because I think anyone posting for advice on the HA forum deserves a complete answer. Giving them anything less than that is doing them a dis-service, because there would be too much room for them to mis-apply the info. It is a responsibility I feel when passing along thoughts on poker that the person NOT mis-understand me, as if I answer less than clearly, I could confuse them more". There, simple and sweet; a LOT shorter than what I wrote above too. ...but if you do not have an inkling of the reasons why I said what I did in that tiny post, you might think I feel the way I expressed there for reasons OTHER than my actual reasons. If you cared enough to ask a question, or make a statement, I feel yo have a right to not know just what I think, but WHY I think that... ...and the only way to communicate that sort of info is to make a post that is longer than normal. See?
            You're correct with the expressing you thought of why instead of just the whats. Your posts have always been informative and I noticed that my 1st month here but..... if I was to combine all the post you made before the HA section came I would be willing to bet a decent wager that it would add up to more pages than "War & Peace" evil:
            Join My Home Game Club - The Joker's Wild

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Deleted user View Post
              +1

              You both bring very valid points about that forum.

              I find some members post and respond not to debate or learn but to feed the ego or validate what they see as right. If you dont agree with them you tend to not get a response or thanks.
              Personally I dont post about Hands because I did notice some members spam in a sense when they post in that forum. Before you have responded to their first post they have two more.
              That tells me they dont really want to learn.

              The long winded responses have always been a issue with me but new players seem to like them.
              After all you just have to look when they do respond who they are thanking and quite often it isnt the person with a short response. If your not a mod,new members tend not to give your response much weight.
              Keeping it simple by far is the best way to approach many posts,but you have to let things run there course here. No matter of debate will get PSO to acknowledge a issue.
              I stepped down from that forum when I realized that one mod was sitting in their all day and would respond right or wrong within a minute of the post.Or I would have to read a book to see if I agree with what is being posted. So I stepped away not wanting to make waves,which is all I do now.
              Ironic that this forum has gone totally away from what we started with and now caters to a more dummied down version of the membership.
              Within this post is a very good point, one I think which supports a LOT of why I tend to post so long...

              Here:

              I find some members post and respond not to debate or learn but to feed the ego or validate what they see as right.

              While the poster of this italics quote did not seem to mean it to refer to the people who ANSWER the HA questions, I think within this is a valid "concern" for anyone responding to a hand which is posted. To wit:

              If you tend to post something which says the hand contains a mistake, SOME people will tend to believe that such an answer is an "attack" on them or their play style.

              Granted, one would HOPE that this great point by Cookies does not happen often, that people are NOT posting hands in hopes they are told what a great play they made and what bad luck they had, but it is inevitably going to happen.

              The only why I have found to somewhat minimize that effect, the effect of getting accused of bias in some fashion, is to make as complete an answer as to WHY I put up what I did.

              When you post a super-short answer, even if that answer is technically "correct", it is far too easy for someone whose real intent was NOT to seek info to mis-interpret that as some sort of "attack".

              Again, having flame wars start in the HA forum would be a BAD THING, and would serve to make that place almost totally useless to its main goal: helping players look at their hands from the OUTSIDE.

              So TY for this addition Cookies, you have stated one of the EXACT reasons why I tend to post in such a long winded fashion there.
              Last edited by JDean; Sun Dec 18, 2011, 09:15 PM.
              Double Bracelet Winner

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JDean View Post
                I get your comment dertymcgerty, but I tend to disagree...


                ...since that comment was likely directed at me (I'm not being overly sensitive or paranoid, I fully recognize my particular posting style might be "over whelming" to some), I'd like to explain why...
                (please note: I am not offended at all by the inference of your post)

                COULD I answer HA posts in a shorter manner...sure.

                But to me, what purpose does it serve a newer player to say something like:

                "Don't shove all in on top set when it is the nuts. That only costs you money."

                That is short, that might be a complete answer, but it is not an answer which tells the poster WHY he shouldn't shove in that spot.

                If that person is a newer player, don't you think he might want to know WHY he shouldn't shove there, and HOW it is costing him money?

                While an answer like that short one might help the new player in a the exact same spot in the future, it does not really give him a basis to judge a situation which might be slightly different.

                Since there are so many potential variations to situations in poker, if you receive an answer simply telling you WHAT to do, without any reference to WHY you should be doing it, it is quite possible that the person trying to USE the information will mis-apply it. When they mis-apply it, there is a strong chance they might BLAME the HA forum, because they just did what they were told to do in there.

                consider it like the parable about teaching a man to fish...

                If you give a man a fish, he eats today.
                If you TEACH a man to fish, he will eat forever.

                From my personal view point, if you simply tell someone WHAT to do differently in a HA question, you are helping him in JUST that same spot...

                But if you tell him WHY he should do something differently as well, and include links to info that supports that, you give him the basis to reason for himself in any SIMILAR situation...and make the necessary adjustments.

                ...of course the usefulness of my approach implies the person posting is truly trying to work on his game, and is willing to put in the study required to ABSORB the thoughts that were put out...

                Do my posts contain a huge density of information at times...yes.

                But if you read them, I try to really stick to only a couple of critical points that I EXPLAIN.
                Other than that, I tend to show some "processes", like pot odds calculations, or ranging percentages, but do not usually go into HOW those were done (unless that was the point of the question asked).

                If a poster does not understand HOW those processes work, they may not tend to help a whole lot, but those processes may help OTHERS who read the post to see why I arrived at my suggestions. For the poster though, even if they are not ready to USE those processes now, they are at least getting an inkling that such processes EXIST, and that may peak their curiosity about learning how to use them...right?

                Finally, while my posts SEEM long, in reality they are rarely more than 1500 or 2000 words in length, even for the massive ones. That word count equates to maybe 1.5 to 2 pages in a book, at MAXIMUM. When you consider that even very SHORT magazine articles are around 10k to 12k words, what I write is really not THAT LONG.

                I have noted that the internet has seemed to engender a certain amount of mental "laziness"in people. Perhaps laziness is a harsh word, and it might be better to say the immediacy of internet communications have led people to believe that they are working HARDER than they think they are in reading a 500 word post. The fact is, reading this probably does not take people more than a minute or 2...is that REALLY too much time to ask someone to invest in their own poker knowledge expansion when THEY asked a question?

                When they ask that question, as an analyzer I feel I should give them as complete an answer as possible, and doing less than that is no real service at all.

                I notice once again I have taken what could have been a very SHORT answer, and blown it all out of shape again. I guess I am incorrigible!

                But to my way of thinking, what I have put up here is far more communicative of my view point than answering this question something like this:

                "I write long answers because I think anyone posting for advice on the HA forum deserves a complete answer. Giving them anything less than that is doing them a dis-service, because there would be too much room for them to mis-apply the info. It is a responsibility I feel when passing along thoughts on poker that the person NOT mis-understand me, as if I answer less than clearly, I could confuse them more".

                There, simple and sweet; a LOT shorter than what I wrote above too.

                ...but if you do not have an inkling of the reasons why I said what I did in that tiny post, you might think I feel the way I expressed there for reasons OTHER than my actual reasons. If you cared enough to ask a question, or make a statement, I feel yo have a right to not know just what I think, but WHY I think that...

                ...and the only way to communicate that sort of info is to make a post that is longer than normal.

                See?

                My wife made cookies for the kids and I this morning, would you like her to send you some?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Deleted user View Post
                  Ironic that this forum has gone totally away from what we started with and now caters to a more dummied down version of the membership.
                  This is not @Cookies, but rather at basically anyone who reads this.

                  The forum is primarily used by new poker players, and many of them do benefit from the advice given. Frequently, the new players come and go, but having a HA forum is a good thing for PSO. I think that neither people who post threads nor the hand reviewers should be blamed for people leaving the forum. That's their choice.

                  As someone who reviews hands, I really don't care if people thank me. I rarely do in my own threads, because I feel it's already implied and just needlessly bumps a concluded thread. I also don't really care what people think of my posts. If they think I'm harsh, I'm harsh for a reason. If they don't respect my opinion, it doesn't matter to me. I post in the HA forum because I like to help out new players like a lot of people here helped me when I started playing. Like JDean said, people are critical there because it does people no good if anyone sugar-coats the truth. IMHO, reducing the forum to a 'dummied down version' or a hostile part of PSO is wildly inaccurate.

                  If you think that the forum needs improving, then there's a pretty easy way to do that. Post in it.

                  Also, I very frequently reply in threads within 5 mins of them being posted. So what.
                  Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sun Dec 18, 2011, 09:41 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As one of the "beginners" in the forum I would just say this:

                    Whenever I post, on whatever subject, I ALWAYS appreciate a response, short or long.

                    Some of the longer responses do go over my head sometimes, but as JD says, it does provoke me to investigate further.

                    The way I see the forum is that it does benefit the newer player most and I am most grateful for ALL the help I have received through it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PanickyPoker View Post
                      This is not @Cookies, but rather at basically anyone who reads this.

                      The forum is primarily used by new poker players, and many of them do benefit from the advice given. Frequently, the new players come and go, but having a HA forum is a good thing for PSO. I think that neither people who post threads nor the hand reviewers should be blamed for people leaving the forum. That's their choice.

                      As someone who reviews hands, I really don't care if people thank me. I rarely do in my own threads, because I feel it's already implied and just needlessly bumps a concluded thread. I also don't really care what people think of my posts. If they think I'm harsh, I'm harsh for a reason. If they don't respect my opinion, it doesn't matter to me. I post in the HA forum because I like to help out new players like a lot of people here helped me when I started playing. Like JDean said, people are critical there because it does people no good if anyone sugar-coats the truth. IMHO, reducing the forum to a 'dummied down version' or a hostile part of PSO is wildly inaccurate.

                      If you think that the forum needs improving, then there's a pretty easy way to do that. Post in it.

                      Also, I very frequently reply in threads within 5 mins of them being posted. So what.
                      Its funny that I trumpet you in so many posts and you come back and spit on me with this post.
                      Thank you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        meh
                        Last edited by RedLetterman; Fri Dec 23, 2011, 06:24 AM. Reason: meh

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          the long ones I do not read, I prefer Pucieks analysis myself, short concise and terse lol

                          And cookies, you might need to put on the dirtyrubberz again to avoid the wetness

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I enjoy reading JD's posts. His explaining of "how and why" is always most enteresting. the one thing i don't like A VERY MINOR POINT is--- "see" ---at the end of the post. He is right .What is the good of telling someone not to do or to do something if you don't tell him why?
                            Triple Bracelet Winner

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi all,

                              I am sure I'm one of the guilty ones who sometimes does not always say ty.

                              Why not because i don't want the help i do (boy do i need help). But Like a lot of us with a job kids or a partner, i don't always remember to go back and post. It happens.

                              As to not respecting a poster who is a Mod, I'm probably more guilty of being the other way around. Not any more but i found it weird that Mods were posting. Don't know why but in my head it seemed wrong.

                              As you may have noticed I like to hear the reason a play is good or bad, it helps me process the information.

                              On the plus side you always tend to get multiple replies to hands so you can pick the long or the short depending on personal preference.

                              As for the forum Having changed over the years, That happens, I'm sorry things took a turn for for the worst in your eyes but we still have an advanced poker forum where the old experienced lags can post. (I have never look in so not sure what kind of thing gets posted.)

                              Anyway to anyone who took the time to reply to one of my posts and never received a ty I thank you i hope you can find it in your heart to forgive an old forgetful fool and believe me when i say i never meant to do it maliciously.

                              Grade b
                              I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

                              13 Time Bracelet Winner


                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X

                              X Cookies Information

                              We have placed cookies on your computer to improve your experience on our website. You can change your cookie settings at any time. Otherwise, we'll assume you're OK to continue.