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Players in $0.25 45 man SNG

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  • Players in $0.25 45 man SNG

    In the post I put in the hand analysis forum yesterday http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...hoving-on-flop the topic of blind stealing came up and JWK24 mentioned I shouldn't really be doing it in those tourneys since most of the players are donks / loose passive / bad lags and just playing tight is enough.

    However I've noticed lately a lot more nitty players in these tourneys, to the point where they consistently out number the donks and stealing is essential once you hit the mid stages to maintain a healthy stack.

    For example these are the stats of the players on my table around mid stages of a tourney (I think around 20 players left) I was playing earlier.

    8 / 4
    22 / 11
    11 / 9
    60 / 26
    12 / 8
    24 / 24
    12 / 12
    16 / 16
    27 / 19 (me, slightly looser than I'd normally play since running good)

    mostly TAGs and nits and only one donk.. who got knocked out pretty fast after this.

    I was finding I was having to steal to keep my chips up and it was working.

    On final table now, and it is all TAGs / nits. Fortunately most of them aren't aware of stealing as a strategy. My steal attempt % is 30, but aside from 2 others who have a similar stat the rest don't seem to be trying at all.

    Also, luckily some of the nits are a little CS like and will call when they don't have the odds.

    Even so, these games are definitely a little tougher than they used to be.

    I know a lot of you guys here play them. What has been your experiences with these, are the donks deserting them?
    Last edited by Tomcrockpot; Thu Dec 08, 2011, 04:38 PM. Reason: missed something

  • #2
    Hey Tom,

    I can't speak to the state of these games in general, but I will offer a couple thoughts...

    For last night's live training I did part 1 of a review of a $1 45-man played by PSO member Jimmy Trap. The opponents in Jimmy Trap's game were for the large part, loose and extremely bad.

    The other thought is that imo, nits don't make the game tougher. Nits are just as exploitable as the loose donks you're referring to (just exploitable in different ways).

    If your table is playing largely nitty then opening up and stealing more is a correct adjustment, just be careful to pay attention to stack sizes and adjust accordingly. The vpips of 8, 11, 12, and 12 all seem like good steal targets just based on their stats alone.
    Head Live Trainer
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    4 Time Bracelet Winner



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    • #3
      Dave,

      This is the exact game you did a member review for m.bisland on a couple weeks ago. Remember how bad the play was in it?
      Super-Moderator



      6 Time Bracelet Winner


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      • #4
        Thanks for your thoughts.

        I think you are right, nits replacing loose donks doesn't actually make things much harder, just requires a change in strategy which it's taken me a few games to start to get the hang of.

        Thankfully a lot of these players (even some of the TAGs) will not let go of a decent hand once they have one (e.g they overbet with trips and lose to my flush) so with the right cards you can ladder climb pretty quick still.

        Yes the players you highlighted were extremely lucrative to me. One or two of them were so passive it was ridiculous and would fold to any aggression at all.

        Unfortunately with these tight players it seems the games take a lot longer, but I was able to enter the final table has chip leader and finish first.
        Last edited by Tomcrockpot; Thu Dec 08, 2011, 06:48 PM. Reason: correction

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        • #5
          Tom,

          Those numbers are way lower than when I was playing in those.
          A typical table for me in them was 2-3 calling stations, 3-4 LAG's, maybe a TAG or 2 and possibly 1 nit.

          The lowest numbers here are good candidates for a steal, but when you do it, make sure you have position on them.

          Let me send a message about this thread to Moxie, he's played a ton of these quarters and we'll get his 2 cents on them.
          Super-Moderator



          6 Time Bracelet Winner


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          • #6
            I played 100 of these for the cowboys challenge and in general i never purely just steal i would only open a hand that i was willing to play if i was not in a steal position (slightly losser range tough) unless i had reads that the blinds were extremely tight like you did. Occasionally i would get a few games that were as tight as the one you have mentioned above and in general they were at certain times of the day generally around 5pm Greenwich mean time (uk about 12 est i believe) but by 17.00 est these games were far looser and softer to play in, the only time i would have stack issues were if i was not dealt a premium and was unable to accumulate chips due to being card dead or missing flops etc, and in that case i would be willing to take a shot with say suited middling cards over a limper or shoving into the blinds from the button on the read that i was pretty sure they would fold, this can be dangerous as the favorite call of an 8 to12 bb stack shove is j10 off suit so generally patience is the key and jamming strong aces or pocket pairs is the way to go as you will be called very lightly. I would say however that by the last 2 tables of play most tourneys tighten up considerably and this is the best time to steal from those that you notice are tight as it becomes a game of survival for them rather than a tourney they should be playing to win.
            Last edited by darkmajik365; Thu Dec 08, 2011, 08:43 PM.

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            • #7
              Oh forgot to add in general the play in these is awful and most of the time you will have 9 or 10 players busted in the first blind level alone.

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              • #8
                I agree Tom, in the mid-late stages of these tourneys a lot of players do to tend to nit up and we can and should exploit these players. I often find that just sitting back and waiting for a good hand will not leave me with enough chips for the final table, so as the blinds and antes go up blind stealing in the right spots can be important.

                I have found that it is not infrequent for a stack as short as 4-5bb to leverage quite a lot of fold equity at this level, so exploiting these folders in an unopened pot with almost ATC is actually +Ev. See Dave's class on fold equity in the video section for a mathematical breakdown of how this is true, I found it to be an eye-opener.

                I read the following somewhere that also made me think; we want to make sure that we are playing a true TAG style and not a nit style, and 2/3 of TAG is AG.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Swaxwell View Post
                  I agree Tom, in the mid-late stages of these tourneys a lot of players do to tend to nit up and we can and should exploit these players. I often find that just sitting back and waiting for a good hand will not leave me with enough chips for the final table, so as the blinds and antes go up blind stealing in the right spots can be important.

                  I have found that it is not infrequent for a stack as short as 4-5bb to leverage quite a lot of fold equity at this level, so exploiting these folders in an unopened pot with almost ATC is actually +Ev. See Dave's class on fold equity in the video section for a mathematical breakdown of how this is true, I found it to be an eye-opener.

                  I read the following somewhere that also made me think; we want to make sure that we are playing a true TAG style and not a nit style, and 2/3 of TAG is AG.
                  Completely agree it is all read dependent but yeah as you approach the final table players will get tighter unless you have a big stack with 100vpip these players will be splashing around and in some cases have 15,000 or more chips, and have definitely seen a 4 or 5 bb ship gain a lot of folds.

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                  • #10
                    PS I have actually been playing the 50c turbos so the dynamic is a little different to the regular speed 25c games, but I still think that exploting nity players in the blinds can be valuable in the regular speed games.

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                    • #11
                      Switch to the 90's, they are full of super loose donks. I think there is more value in them if you have a little more time.

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                      • #12
                        I noticed that what time you play makes a difference sometimes.
                        2 Time Bracelet Winner


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                        • #13
                          Yeah, maybe time does make a difference. Probably more donks at some times than others. I'm usually late afternoon / early evening UK time.

                          Will maybe give the 90s a go. I played a $0.50 45 man turbo just now and was definitely chock full of LAGs, trouble is, in a turbo format that makes it harder since if you don't get a decent hand you are screwed since you can't bluff or steal against these guys. Even so, I still made it to 14th by just playing basic TAG before I was blinded out, so if I'd had at least one premium hand would have stood a good chance of running deep.

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                          • #14
                            I played a couple of these and I just been using the spacegravy beginner sng in the videos section of PSO video section to know what hands to play early in the tournament.

                            I think later you have to learn when to push or fold like what ranges of hands to do this with. I think that stealing blinds is good if you have a tight image on the table or if they are tight also.

                            I have been in a few where we will be 5 handed for a really long time nearing the final table and having good reads and knowing when to shove all in can help you alot to get there.

                            So like if the players tight just open up your range a little bit if you have position and stuff like that to steal theier blinds.

                            I also agree with what darkmajik and swaxxwell said
                            2 Time Bracelet Winner


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                            • #15
                              I just play the .50c games like the .10c games pretty much the same thing.
                              2 Time Bracelet Winner


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