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Ethics of Looking At My Neighbors Cards?

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  • Ethics of Looking At My Neighbors Cards?

    Played some live SNG's today in which a nice lady sat to my direct right in, she had a bad habit of lifting her cards so that I could clearly see them several times. The first hand she did it I folded and politely informed her of what she was doing after the hand had played out. She adjusted slightly but I still clearly saw her hands a few times after this. I never did try and take advantage of it, mostly because I was dealt garbage every time I saw her hand, was it unethical to look at her cards like this? Or would you have tried to take full advantage of the situation?

  • #2
    I THINK AFTER YOU TELL HER ONCE YOUR IN THE CLEAR
    NOW IF IT HAD BEEN SOME LOUD MOUTH GUY WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE??

    WHERE DO THEY HAVE SNG'S AND WHATS THE BUY IN'S??


    sometimes i laugh so hard tears run down my leg

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
      Played some live SNG's today in which a nice lady sat to my direct right in, she had a bad habit of lifting her cards so that I could clearly see them several times. The first hand she did it I folded and politely informed her of what she was doing after the hand had played out. She adjusted slightly but I still clearly saw her hands a few times after this. I never did try and take advantage of it, mostly because I was dealt garbage every time I saw her hand, was it unethical to look at her cards like this? Or would you have tried to take full advantage of the situation?
      I posted this on another Un-named forum, in answer to your EXACT question:

      All I can tell you is what I do in the same situation…

      A while back, I was playing in a 6/12 limit game with a little old lady who was doing the same thing as the drunk in your game. She would lift her cards completely off the table and up to her face to see them, and on each street she would look again. As we were playing 10 handed Hold 'em at a STUD table (slightly smaller, designed for 8 or 9 players, not 10), there was basically no way I could avoid seeing her hand, short of asking for a seat change.

      Obviously changing seats would have been DUMB, because anyone moved to that spot may not have qualms about using the info they'd get; that would put me at a dis-advantage.

      I could not ask for a table change, as this was the only 6/12 LHE game going.

      What I did was warn her I had seen her cards first once, then TWICE. The 2nd time was in case she had not heard me or did not understand after the first time I had seen her hand. After that, she was on her own, in my opinion, as was I.

      My feelings about the matter were that as long as I did nothing to TRY to see her cards (crane my neck, re-position my chair, look over specificlly to try to catch her at it), then any info which happened to come my way as a result of her failing eye sight was ok for me to use.

      To be honest, still I think of that situation, and wonder if what I did was "right".

      On the one hand, it is pretty STUPID to even think about passing up such a huge advantage that could result in free money, but on the other hand was that money I won worth "taking advantage" of someone who probably could not physically do anything differently?

      Maybe I should have shown her how to cup her cards in her hands so she could raise them to her face to see 'em…who knows.

      I can live with the decision I did make though.
      Double Bracelet Winner

      Comment


      • #4
        @JDean She wasn't drunk just inexperienced. She was looking back at her hand constantly when she was involved in a pot and I could see her cards by turning my head towards her when it was her turn to act. I wasn't purposely trying to see her cards and I turn towards every player in the game who's turn it is to act when I'm in a pot, but when she exposed her cards I couldn't help but look. I was actually trying to find a good spot to take advantage of it but that didn't feel right.

        @Dennis I would have done the same thing I did if it was some loud mouth guy and I don't know of any casino's that run SNG's. The games where played at a casino dealing school that wanted to get the dealers experience in a game where the players actually played for real money instead of a fake money bingo fest.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
          @JDean She wasn't drunk just inexperienced. She was looking back at her hand constantly when she was involved in a pot and I could see her cards by turning my head towards her when it was her turn to act.
          The person in the other example was drunk, but it all boils down to the same thing: the person who you were getting flashes from had no clue they were doing it, and even after being told about it, they continued.

          There was a PSO live event in Tunica in '07. At that event I was seated next to a person (Tropitan777 if you are still around, HI!), and she was flashing her cards. As it was a PSO game, with a very friendly atmosphere (altho it WAS a $75 BI MTT!), it did not feel right not to tell her.

          So I did...

          I told her to stop "flashing me"!

          She glanced down the front of her blouse with a blush, and I quickly said, "No...your CARDS!"

          We had a laugh about it, and she was more careful about her cards thereafter.

          I only include this story, because forever after that, until the end of "old" PSO, Trop was known as "the Flasher!"
          Double Bracelet Winner

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
            @JDean She wasn't drunk just inexperienced. She was looking back at her hand constantly when she was involved in a pot and I could see her cards by turning my head towards her when it was her turn to act. I wasn't purposely trying to see her cards and I turn towards every player in the game who's turn it is to act when I'm in a pot, but when she exposed her cards I couldn't help but look. I was actually trying to find a good spot to take advantage of it but that didn't feel right.

            @Dennis I would have done the same thing I did if it was some loud mouth guy and I don't know of any casino's that run SNG's. The games where played at a casino dealing school that wanted to get the dealers experience in a game where the players actually played for real money instead of a fake money bingo fest.
            OH SO WHERE'S THE SCHOOL ??
            YEA I DON'T KNOW OF ANY UP HERE THAT HAVE THEM DAMN IT


            sometimes i laugh so hard tears run down my leg

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, it seems that this happens a good 6 out of 10 times I play live. I always tell the person then make a concerted effort to not see their cards. I always feel like a sap but I just think its the right thing to do. While it doesnt seem to help with my poker karma I do feel better not looking. Of course these are usually small buy in local tournies, but I like to think id do the same thing in any tourny.
              Bracelet Winner

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JDean View Post
                The person in the other example was drunk, but it all boils down to the same thing: the person who you were getting flashes from had no clue they were doing it, and even after being told about it, they continued.
                So your saying at that point there is nothing wrong with using it to my advantage?

                Originally posted by hemetdennis View Post
                OH SO WHERE'S THE SCHOOL ??
                It's a couple miles from my house in El Cajon, CA.

                Originally posted by FLsnookman View Post
                Well, it seems that this happens a good 6 out of 10 times I play live. I always tell the person then make a concerted effort to not see their cards. I always feel like a sap but I just think its the right thing to do. While it doesnt seem to help with my poker karma I do feel better not looking. Of course these are usually small buy in local tournies, but I like to think id do the same thing in any tourny.
                This is the first time it's ever happened to me, although I don't play live very often I never thought players showing their cards would be that common.

                Comment


                • #9
                  JUST FINISHED A HOUSE LAST MONTH IN CHULA VISTA umbup:
                  sometimes i laugh so hard tears run down my leg

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here are some thoughts, from am old guy who has not played much live poker but has studied moral philosophy / ethics to some extensive degree.

                    Once in a live poker game, I would take advantage of any information I could gain that was to my advantage. The game situation is not quite the same as general ethics. Of course in general life I would not steal money from a little old lady/drunk bloke/partially sighted or otherwise frail person, but when anybody enters the poker arena, if they are willing to put their cash in I will exploit any of their weaknesses, be that poor play, physical tells, general stupidity or any frailty that accidentally means they keep showing me what they are holding. Their willingness to put themselves into that situation presumably means they enjoy the game, however badly they might lose.

                    It is their choice to play and I will watch every player in the game to get whatever info I can, if one of them happens to accidentally keep showing me their cards I would probably not even mention it to them.

                    I am not saying this attitude is 'right', but then the ethics of gambling in general are debateable.

                    And despite any evidence to the contrary - I may just be a very bad man.

                    Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
                    4 Time Bracelet Winner


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ed,

                      I agree. If I see someone doing it, the first thing I'll do is to warn them about it. If they want to keep showing them... then it's fair game and I'll use it against them.
                      Super-Moderator



                      6 Time Bracelet Winner


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We, as poker players, do everything we can to be deceitful, to mask our true holdings, to bluff, and we lie through our teeth (or keyboards) about the cards we mucked. In other words - we are not to be trusted because we are known liars! At the poker table that is.

                        BUT, we are moral, ethical people, who will tell a player they are flashing their cards, who will tell a dealer that we saw a card as it was dealt. We want to win every hand, or at least our fair share. We study books and videos on tells and we use all the other legal tools (e.g.; HUDs) at our disposal to gain advantage over our opponents.

                        I agree with JDean and the others - I would tell the "flasher" that I can see their cards - once, maybe twice. After that their decision to show me their cards is their choice and my advantage. Any other player at the table who knows what is happening should immediately request my seat for when I leave the table.

                        Herk

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hemetdennis View Post
                          JUST FINISHED A HOUSE LAST MONTH IN CHULA VISTA umbup:
                          You were playing in Chula Vista or you just finished building a house of your own in Chula Vista? I lived in Chula for 10 years I had no clue any one in this forum was in my area.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
                            You were playing in Chula Vista or you just finished building a house of your own in Chula Vista? I lived in Chula for 10 years I had no clue any one in this forum was in my area.
                            I PUT A NEW HOUSE THERE OLD ONE HAD BURNED DOWN
                            THAT'S WHAT I DO
                            I LIVE IN HEMET SO I'M NOT THAT FAR FROM YOU
                            ARE YOU GOING TO THE GREEN BAY GAME NEXT WEEKEND ??


                            sometimes i laugh so hard tears run down my leg

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by hemetdennis View Post
                              I PUT A NEW HOUSE THERE OLD ONE HAD BURNED DOWN
                              THAT'S WHAT I DO
                              I LIVE IN HEMET SO I'M NOT THAT FAR FROM YOU
                              ARE YOU GOING TO THE GREEN BAY GAME NEXT WEEKEND ??


                              Yeah I'll be at the game.

                              Comment

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