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A Question for PSO'ers...

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  • A Question for PSO'ers...

    Here goes:

    You are in the BB with a 5 blind stack (1 of those posted, 4BB behind).

    You are roughly 25 people from the money, and are one of the 5 smallest stacks left in the event (thus you have almost no chance to ladder climb to a cash).

    It folds to the button, who is a large stack (roughly 60BB or so), and who raises enough to put you all in.

    SB FOLDS.

    Would you rather CALL that raise to make your "stand" holding:

    88?

    OR

    AKo?

    ...and why do you choose the option you do?

    ALSO...

    If the MTT is a standard pay out format, would you ever consider FOLDING either hand versus a 25% VPiP raiser?

    If so, why?

    .................................................. .........

    I'm and curious to see the answers...
    Last edited by JDean; Tue Aug 30, 2011, 11:03 AM.
    Double Bracelet Winner

  • #2
    88 because it plays better against ATC.

    Plus every time I get AK I bust the premier league!

    Comment


    • #3
      If the small blind was a small stack too, he could be making this play with any two cards (you should be noticing whether or not he has been using his stack to bully). In this case you should be in decent shape with either hand and you should not be folding.

      If he had to respect the SB, he is raising with a narrower range. You are still calling. Are you really going to get a better chance to double up (and more) before the whole table doesn't care about your stack ( you may already be in that spot).

      Comment


      • #4
        Also no, never folding vs 25% vpip big stack exploiting bubble. Actually, probably never folding period, since there is a very high risk of not making a cash if you fold, and a guaranteed cash if you call and win. Also calling because MTTs shouldnt be played to try and make mincashes!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
          88 because it plays better against ATC.

          Plus every time I get AK I bust the premier league!

          My problem as well, i see others winning on AK but i have lost every single AK at showdown this month in premier league, only time i win on em is when every1 folds. So id go with 88

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          • #6
            No brainer, 88 because its a ready made hand, the AK still has to hit.
            2012 Double Bracelet Winner
            Bracelet Winner

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            • #7
              Originally posted by KOingDonks View Post
              My problem as well, i see others winning on AK but i have lost every single AK at showdown this month in premier league, only time i win on em is when every1 folds. So id go with 88
              My last 2 tourneys i didnt want to add the rest of them it would take lots of space as i stated every AK at showdown this month was a losing hand for me, guess coming 3rd last month was and will be the only highlight for me here at PSO. GL ALL
              Last edited by KOingDonks; Tue Aug 30, 2011, 01:59 PM.

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              • #8
                Interesting question JD... Having giving it some thought my preferred hand would be AKo as it plays better against a wider range A#, K#, Q# and you still have approx. 44% equity against mid or small pair e.g. 77, 66 etc... whilst 88 is a coin toss with 55% equity against any 2 over cards and you're only ever dominating smaller pairs. That said... I'm shoving in this position with either hand with only 5BB irrespective of villain's VPIP. umbup:
                Last edited by Prodigy237; Tue Aug 30, 2011, 06:22 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by gatehouse999 View Post
                  No brainer, 88 because its a ready made hand, the AK still has to hit.
                  Not exactly, the "AK isn't a made hand" argument is flawed... AK is a made hand against all non pocket pairs (all unpaired hole cards need to hit vs AK). The same is true of 88 of course, except vs. 99-KK where both AK and 88 need to hit and AK fairs a ton better.
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                  • #10
                    And I'll take AK.

                    If we knew the opener were raising ATC then 88 would fair slightly better, but vs a 25% range as stated AK is way better.

                    Folding either of these hands in this situation would be atrocious imo.
                    Last edited by TheLangolier; Tue Aug 30, 2011, 09:10 PM. Reason: I can't spell
                    Head Live Trainer
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                    • #11
                      First of all, i'd be thrilled to death to see either one in front of me on 5 bb, and hopefully none of us are getting there any other way than busting to that short, as you've lost all FE by then. I'm not sure if you mean 25% VPIP or PFR... not that it really matters much on 5 bb, cuz even if he had a PFR of say 5% i'm pretty sure i'm still takin' the gamble w/ either hand, as 88 still sqeaks into the bottom of that range (5%ish), and a button raise on a big stack is going to be even wider than than his average a descent amount of the time. I'd probably prefer the AKo just because it plays a little better against the top of that range. since both hands are going to win unimproved against 25% a good enough amount of the time, there's no way i'm finding a fold button with either. I'm never "satisfied" w/ a min cash in one of these, so a double NOW is much needed to have any chance of getting deep. There's my .02
                      May the tinfoil protect you. MT

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                      • #12
                        And even if you got to 5bb w/ KK on a J high board, there's always 10/9s to chip you back up right Dave? (watched for a few last night) how'd you fair after that? Sorry for the slight derail JD...
                        May the tinfoil protect you. MT

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                        • #13
                          Hmmmm,well 25 from the money in the old PSO format was not close enough to turtle home to a cash as the blinds will be high enough that the next rotation would blind you off. And making an ITM in that format WAS ladder-climbing because of the point differential between a cash and an bubble. But 25 away is too many so it's a snap call (after bleeding your clock of course...).

                          The new format? Meh,haven't played either but I'm sure that in the Premier league there is zero chance of making it on 4 remaining blinds if you fold here so play the hand. Open league sounds like it's so heavily populated with "penny-pushers" that you may be able to turtle home after a fold here,and if that's the case then a fold is a valid play (as perverse as that is).

                          Me I would also be quite happy to see either of these hands with 5 bb's left,but I would lean slightly in favor of having the AK.

                          As to folding this hand under any circumstances 25 from the money in a standard cash MTT,if you do that cash out whatever you have left on this or any other site and take up cribbage.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Moxie Pip View Post

                            As to folding this hand under any circumstances 25 from the money in a standard cash MTT,if you do that cash out whatever you have left on this or any other site and take up cribbage.
                            "29" oops did I say too much?
                            May the tinfoil protect you. MT

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                            • #15
                              I find myself agreeing with mtnestegg on this, when your that low, either would have me happily shoving all in.

                              Any two pictures or any pair bigger than a five is effectively a hot meal to a tramp, they have good odds going in, two headed, your most likely to be about 50-50. That low in chips, that's about as good as it's going to get.

                              If I was to pick between them, though, I'd probably choose the machine guns, on account of the fact they'd be good to have up against any non pair, and up against pairs, if you hit the pots in the bag.
                              'Cause I have done it before and I can do it some more I got my eye on the score'

                              Comment

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