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Working my way up/ A little boasting and some advice please.

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  • Working my way up/ A little boasting and some advice please.

    I started playing poker a couple years ago, and I did like most people, I lost some money and i ended up very frustrated. Then I ran into some trouble, some medical trouble aswell, and I stopped playing. Long story short, at the beginning of July I came back and started learning here at Pokerschool. I realized quickly, I had a couple major leaks in my game. Not that this was surprising in any way, I was very much aware that I was a losing player. So, I deposited 25€ and gave it another shot, mainly playing the ten and twentyfive cents MTT's. It turns out, that with the plugged leak's (some anyway) I seem to be doing okay. The deposit of 25€ came to like 36 dollar which today stands at 56 dollar. I know that 56 dollar is not really a BR, but the fact that I seem to end up ITM a fair amount of the time gives me such a rush - playing poker became a lot more fun lately. And searching "Crumblepie" at OPR brings a smile to my face when I check my results for the last 120 days, I actually get to see a positive ROI. I like MTT's with 90 ppl and up, and I like it slow, the turbo's are not my cup of tea. So after cheking the tournamentlobby, if the time comes to move up, I would like to move up to the $ 1.50 90 ppl Knockout tournaments, as they have 15 minute levels. Which leaves us with the question, what BR should I have before I move up? Oh, and ofcourse, thank you to pokerschool. umbsup:

  • #2
    first, answer this:

    Would it hurt you severely financially if you lost ALL the $56 you have right now?

    If the answer is NO, then there is no MONETARY reason for you to not to move up right now.

    You see...

    You are playing on a "bank roll" if 2 conditions are BOTH met:

    1) The money you are using for poker is dedicated SOLELY to the play of poker


    2) The amount of money you have in your "play bank" is an amount which is SIGNIFICANT to you (significant = not easily replaced out of pocket).

    If an amount you are playing on is easily replaced out of pocket, as long as there is a good chance you hold a SKILL ADVANTAGE on players in a given game, there is no reason whatsoever to NOT play on a single buy in "bank roll". The only time you need to consider bank roll management techniques to account for variance swings is when the money you have on which to play is NOT easily replaced.

    If you can simply reach into your pocket to fund further poker if you lose, even if your INTENT is to reach into your pocket to further fund your poker play if you lose, there is ZERO NEED to take steps to "protect" the moeny you now have from a purely monetary standpoint; you may as well "take shots" at higher levels if you want to!


    The amount you have right now on which to play may not be "significant" in monetary terms to you, but it MAY be "significant" in terms of marking your poker acheivements. If it is not a significant amount as money, but it IS a sigificant amount int erms of your pride, I'd suggest this to you:

    Move up whenever you feel like it!

    Fact is, the only truly "successful" micro stakes grinder I know is Holdupman48.

    By "successful", I mean Bill has NEVER deposited on line anywhere, had a little bit over $500 on which to play poker as of Black Friday, and had drawn out somewhere between $500 and $700 for christmas gifts and such over the years. Bill had been playing like 6 or 8 years to do that, but he was DEFINATELY a long term "winner" at low stakes on line poker.

    Through talking to Bill a lot, I THINK I have keyed into his "secret for success"...

    Bill does not CARE about the money he has on line, as "money"!
    All he seems to care aobut is the amount of PLAY the money he has on line will give him.

    I THINK this is his "secret"; Because Bill loves playing poker so much, because he would do it for nothing (as long as the game wasn't a total moron fest), the money becomes a mechanism for him to play more...not an end in itself.

    You see, Bill would NEVER ask a question like you did here: "When can I move up to a higher play level"?

    To him, the answer would be pretty obvious: I have $56, I CAN move up to a $1.50 level if I want, but will doing so lead me into a pattern of behavior that may result in me going broke, thus not hae money on line to play poker?

    Generally Bill would set himself a target number of buy ins before trying out a higher level. Only when he hit that number would he move up to take a shot.

    Once at the higher level, he did not necessary approach that as his new PERMANENT level, but instead he'd play 10 or 20 events and see how it went.

    Right before Black Friday, Bill had just completed a cycle of move up to the $11, 27man SNG level. After 10 or 15 games, he was down like $50 or $75. That "loss" is easily within variance norms even for a good player, but rather than beating his head against the wall at the HIGHER LEVER, one at which he had no real past record of his play, Bill decided to move bakc down to a level he KNEW he could beat.

    A lot of his reasoning lay NOT in "bank roll management" thoughts; Bill never has/had any intent to withdraw his $ and STOP playing poker. Rather it seems to me it lies in POKER PLAYABILITY concerns, or concerns that he can keep on playing, no matter the level. Bill feels there is greater returns at the levels he habituated after getting his BR amount up high enough to not go bust, and did not want to go BACK to free roll or tiny micro games...THOSE were his only concerns.


    what this all means for YOU (in my opinion) is...

    When to move UP isn't really your worry...$56 ain't the end all/be all of your life I am sure.
    you could EASILY move to a $5.50 SNG/MTT if you wanted to "take a shot"...

    Your REAL concern seems to be WHEN TO MOVE BACK DOWN!

    Risking 10% of your BR on a single buy in, so long as there is a significantly higher potential reward than your normal levels, is completely FINE to do, even if you are trying to get maximum play out of the money you have on line. The real difficulty lies in not getting your head all twisted around the thought that once you've "moved up you MUST "stay up" or you are somehow a "failure".

    THAT is what BR discipline is about in large part...

    Can you pass that test?
    Last edited by JDean; Thu Aug 18, 2011, 09:20 PM.
    Double Bracelet Winner


    • #3
      You touch a couple keypoints there in your post JDean.

      It is very true that 50 bucks is easely replaced and if needed i could deposit a couple hundred bucks as well. I am not saying that I am rich, but a couple hundred bucks once and a while is not going to change my life in a drastic way, I have done it before. What happens then is that I start playing against people that are a lot better at it than me. My point of playing with 25€ is that it forces me to make sound "BR" choices, it teaches me some dicipline, which I will need because I plan to get better and maybe even good at the tournament game.

      In the past I deposited and alway's played way out of my BR range and abillity, i'd like to change that.

      So you could say, I am not in it for the money, kinda like Bill, it's the game itself that I love so much. I have an account on Doyles in which I never deposited, I won ten dollar in some forumfreeroll and used it to play the micro FL hold'em cashgames until it stood at fifty something. That was a couple months of playing poker for fun, The FL hold'em games over there dryed up so the money sits there waiting.

      I knew that the money can be replaced, but I tend to get carried away by what I am doing, you know, grinding to a higher level, maybe I take it to serious, it is after all only 50 bucks.

      I'll move up to the $ 1.50 Knockout MTT's and see what the competion is like overthere.

      So yeah, I'll give it a shot. I am already feeling the rush!


      • #4
        I don;t see why you shouldn't give the $1.50's a try NOW good on you.

        Since you do express that you take some (justifiable) pride in having built up your playing cash a little bit, all you really should worry about is not "marrying" yourself to the higher level.

        Try a couple...if you are up, great!

        If you are down, move back down in levels, and re-build to a point where you are comfortably redy to try another few shots at the $1.50 level.

        All you gotta do is be sure you do not invest in FALSE PRIDE, keying your feelings of satisfaction in poker solely to the level at which you play, and trying to "justify" your decisions based on some specious "bank roll management" concern...

        If you had $2500 on line, or some other amount someone who is not pretty well off financially would find DIFFICULT to replace out of pocket, then you do have a financial reason to "protect" your cash. Of course with $2500 on line, you'd also probably be funded for the $11 SNG/MTT level...

        The key DIFFERENCE between "significant" and "insignificant" amoutns on line lies in your intention to CASH OUT some of the money, and realize your profits.

        Let's be really honest: even if you build up to $400 or $500 or something, aren't you more than likely to leave ALL your cash on line, and view that money as a bank roll for playing HIGHER buy in's?

        If that is the case, you are NEVER giving yourself a chance to realize profits from your poker play in ANY spend-able form. You are already just playing poker to have money to play more poker BECAUSE the amounts you win are too insignifcant to bother cashing out!

        But if you had $2500 or so, and were playing the $11 SNG/MTT levels, with "profitable" play, you could pretty easily generate $50 to $250 in "plus money" added to your BR most weeks. At that point, cashing out $50 or $100 in a week when you make that much (or a little more if you feel you want to add a little cushion to your BR) IS an amount which is significant enough to cash out regularly. sure, you are not going to LIVE on that money, but it WILL buy you some tangible "things"...

        - $50 is usually enough to pay a cell phone bill for a month.
        - $50 can buy your lunch for a full week at work.
        - $50 can fill a gas tank (ok, half fill one!)

        - $100 is usually enough to take a lady (or your wife ) out to a nice dinner and a movie.
        - $100 is close to what it takes to pay for a pack-a-day cigarette habit for a month.
        - $100 is enough for a decent pair of shoes, or a nice pair of blue jeans.

        While none of those are "sexy" like going form 0 to $10,000 playing free rolls is, nor "sexy" like running up a Million dollar roll in 1 year of poker, they are REAL tangible things that are entirely realistic from playing on line poker.

        I think a lot of people struggle with micro stakes play, and grinding up cash at the micro stakes, because of all the UN-REALISTIC stories about huge on line poker "success". I'm pretty sure Randy Lew (nananoko) and Tom Dwan (durrrr) did not run up their mega rolls without "getting away with" at least SOME bank roll mangement "mistakes" along the way. When we "normal folks" make those mistakes, we tend to go broke...and the frustration starts to set in...
        Double Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          I played the first one, busted out in 23rd place. Never got a hand, apart from a pair of 8's which I had to let go when it got bet and raised to me on the AK9 flop. I am not ranting or complaining, I've seen it happen before.

          It started out crazy aggressive, a number ppl going all in with craphands really. Some of them ended up with very big stacks very quick.

          Later on in the game things tightened up a bit, and no free cards. And then I had a couple splitpots, so it was'nt to be.


          Edit: the next one was pretty bad, it seems that toppair Q's with an ace kicker is not good enough to call an all in with. Maybe I need to tighten up some more. Out in 85th place.

          One more for today.
          Last edited by Crumblepie; Fri Aug 19, 2011, 01:39 AM.


          • #6
            Concise as usual in your responses Jimmy D


            • #7
              Originally posted by spike8998 View Post
              Concise as usual in your responses Jimmy D



              • #8
                Originally posted by spike8998 View Post
                Concise as usual in your responses Jimmy D
                Said with a cockney accent, as usual...

       filthy island monkey!

                Double Bracelet Winner


                • #9
                  - $50 is usually enough to pay a cell phone bill for a month.
                  - $50 can buy your lunch for a full week at work.
                  - $50 can fill a gas tank (ok, half fill one!)

                  - $100 is usually enough to take a lady (or your wife ) out to a nice dinner and a movie.
                  - $100 is close to what it takes to pay for a pack-a-day cigarette habit for a month.
                  - $100 is enough for a decent pair of shoes, or a nice pair of blue jeans.

                  are you seriouse? wow man you must be rich...
                  2 Time Bracelet Winner


                  • #10
                    I do believe in Bankroll management. I'm thinking the the perfect tournament for your BR is the .55 [500Guaranteed] tourney. It has 15 minute blinds, 3000 starting chips. Because the field is not limited to 90 players, you're not limited in the amount you earn. There are enough donks so the field will thin quickly, (30% in 30 minutes) but enough good players that you can test your skills. It sounds to me like you will both do well and preserve your bankroll in this structure.
                    I would stick with this tourney until I won (which should double your bankroll). Two or three wins should give you the confidence to play in some of the larger tourneys.
                    Last edited by CorkiePoker; Mon Aug 22, 2011, 11:41 AM. Reason: Additional Information


                    • #11
                      - $100 is close to what it takes to pay for a pack-a-day cigarette habit for a month. Hey JD, can you send me some smokes? moke: Try closer to $150


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by !!!111Dan View Post
                        - $100 is close to what it takes to pay for a pack-a-day cigarette habit for a month. Hey JD, can you send me some smokes? moke: Try closer to $150
                        I'm in jersey $150 gets you to about day 20
                        May the tinfoil protect you. MT


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by !!!111Dan View Post
                          - $100 is close to what it takes to pay for a pack-a-day cigarette habit for a month. Hey JD, can you send me some smokes? moke: Try closer to $150
                          Originally posted by mtnestegg View Post
                          I'm in jersey $150 gets you to about day 20
                          sometimes i laugh so hard tears run down my leg


                          • #14
                            Hey crumble...check out this site. I used it before black Friday. I just like the tools that you'll find about half way down in a box..the bankroll calculator and the fergulator. They're tools that you use by inserting your bankroll, and then it gives you the amount you should be playing at. Along with that, it gives tips on some stuff like, when you should look to move up in buy-ins, and a couple other pieces of advice. The bankroll calculator can be used on the site, but the fergulator has to be downloaded I believe. The fergulator is for tourneys and the br calc is primarily for cash games if I remember right. Dennis..I may just look into those. umbup:


                            • #15
                              Costs me about $48 to smoke a pack a day for just aobut 2 months!

                              I roll my own, using un-flavored pipe tabacco.

                              Here is how it breaks down in cost:

                              Box of 250 Zen Filter Tubes = $2.98
                              (I get 4 boxes per order)

                              2 lbs of un-flavored LIGHT Pipe tabacco = $11.99 per lb

                              (pipe tabacco is taxed at a lower rate in the U.S. than cigarette tabacco, and as long as you do not get a "cavendish blend", you are not getting the perfume or sugar infused pipe smoke normally associated with pipe blends. The pipe cut is slightly longer leaf cut, which actually burns slightly COOLER than a shorter, more squared off, ciagreete leaf cut. If you prefer though, Cigarette cut leaf is like 17.99 per lb on line)

                              shipping = ~$10 or $12, depending on priority.

                              I get the equivalent of about 5.5 to 6 CARTONS (10 packs/200 cigs each) out of 2 lbs, so 60 packs at a pack a day is about 2 months

                              The only other investment yo need to make is spending aobut $10 to $15 for a tube injector, and MAYBE a plastic cigarette case for like $2 (I got mine for free with my first order).

                              Of course I will let you know, if you need smokes to go out of the house for a while (like rolling up a full pack) it can be a pain to take the time to roll that many at once. You also will have to get used to a slightly looser roll than a pre-made smoke, but after you get the hang of it, it really is not THAT bad.

                              For maintaining my "habit" at a cost of maybe $0.75 to $1.00 per pack, instead of $4.45 per pack for GENERIC BRANDS, I think it is worth it.
                              Last edited by JDean; Tue Aug 23, 2011, 05:23 AM.
                              Double Bracelet Winner



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