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Not Just in PSO...

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  • Not Just in PSO...

    From and the Seniors No Limit Event

    Folding Aces Preflop? Only At the Seniors Event

    We overheard a few players discussing an extremely interesting hand that occurred earlier in Day 1 action. Apparently, one player was holding and faced a raise, a reraise and a four-bet shove in front of him. Normally this is the type of situation that poker players only dream about, but for this particular competitor in the Seniors Event, something just didn't feel right.

    According to the dealer involved, the player showed her his pocket rockets before throwing them into the muck. His remaining opponents showed and between them and after a king-high flop, the other man holding the best starting hand in hold'em hit the rail with bad beat story to take home.

    The player responsible for making the mother of all laydowns later told the dealer that "he knew he was up against aces and kings," so in his estimation "he had no outs" if a king hit, and was merely playing for a chop if has hand held up. While folding pocket aces before the flop may redefine the term "unconventional play," the move worked out for this brave soul and he loved to fight another day.

  • #2
    Harrington would be ashamed.


    • #3
      awesome post eric, and this shows old school cats know how to play poker!! umbup:umbup:


      • #4


        • #5

          I just thought it was a good post to show that sometimes even the players in main events realize there is a goal and that goal is to go as far as possible. I have in the past thought that AA was always a shove hand, until I started playing PSO and had to deal with the points issue. I just wonder how many professionals have thrown away the AA and KK in that early position of a tournament just to keep their hopes alive.

          We all know that we can do it in a "free" game, but how many of us could do it on the "big stage"??? And my answer would probably be that I couldn't, but hey, you never know. I knew a guy that was so nervous in a hand one time he folded quad 8s because 3 people shoved and he forgot to check his hand. After he mucked he stood up and walked out because he realized what he had done.


          • #6
            I remember reading in Harrington on Hold'em how Dan Harrington has heard stories from other players who have flopped sets and folded when the only possible better hand than theirs was an overset. They then told stories about how they had such a sick read that they 'knew' they were beat. Harrington called those players idiots. This situation seems pretty similar. Ergo, Harrington would be ashamed.

            In any regular-structure freezeout, if you knew that you were up against KK and AA, while holding AA, you should also know that you'd be 79.57% to chop the KK's stack with the other player (or, a very small percentage of the time, to have one of the aces hit a four-runner flush to win outright). KK has the least amount of equity in the hand, and that's after the equity AA has has been halved because it has to chop with the other AA. So, it would be mathematically wrong to throw away AA here. I'm pretty sure that this reasoning is right, and because the math makes folding AA so horrible, I do believe that the young internet kids would be ashamed, too.
            Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sat Jun 18, 2011, 04:30 PM.


            • #7
              Hey Panicky, When playing in such tournaments, I think equity or percentage or value etc etc goes out the door in early stages. it mainly depends on your goals. When I played my first live game, it was at this same tournament. My first goal, was to make it to the next day, therefore to make it past the first 12 hours. Also I was told, to try and relax the first 2 hours and only play premium hands, in position and only if there was one player involved. This was so that I would take time to analyze every player at the table and get my nervousness out. That's what he probably did, very early in the tournament, he was facing a raise, a reraise and a four-bet shove in front of him. Sure you have about 80% of winning the hand, but you also have 20% chance of ending your tournament and going home. In my first Senior's tournament, I folded KK, with 2 players involved, I was in my 3rd hour, still far from my goal of 12 hours. Glad I did fold, I would of had to spend another 3 days in Vegas wondering what if. Just to let you know, I made it to the next day and played another 7 hours and finished in the money. (and by the way, I only played 2 hands the first day) Last year I was more knowledgeable, so I used equity, percentages and value and was out in 2 hours and 12 minutes. This player just finished playing 2 pocket aces in 8 minutes, what are the odds of him having a third pocket aces and beating my pocket KK. I didn't respect my goal, which was also to make it to the following day, longest 3 days in Vegas. All this to say, sure all these number theories are useful, but in real life there's more to it, such as tells, strength of opponents, personal goals. All those number theories are based on volume, but in a live tournament the volume isn't there, you get knocked out holding AA, your next tournament is next year. Losing 20% of the time could also mean that you could lose 20 times in a row and then win the next 80. Some people can't wait 20 years before it happens. As for believing that the young internet kids would be ashamed, to me there just a bunch of aggressive idiots, they would go all in with a 2-7 offsuit with no knowledge of number theories. umbup:


              • #8
                Originally posted by ericnnancy View Post
                I just wonder how many professionals have thrown away the AA... in that early position of a tournament just to keep their hopes alive.
                Preflop, the answer to this is zero.

                Harrington would be ashamed for good reason... this person's play was horrific.
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                • #9
                  Folding AA before the flop is NOT how you win poker tournaments. If you're going to pass hugely +EV spots to accumulate chips simply because you don't want to risk your tournament life on day 1, you should seriously consider taking up cash games. MTT's are not for you.
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                  • #10
                    i also agree folding aa preflop is not a good move because the chances off you getting any poket pair are approx 240 to 1 i think i herd once
                    3 Time Bracelet Winner


                    • #11
                      There was a hand that I won't ever seem to forget during a PSO tournament I was in.
                      Player in seat on shoved all in. Now this the the very first hand of the 10 pm game. All players fold, now I was sitting in seat 9. I was dealt A-A. I thought for about 3 seconds on what Player 1 had and pretty much insta called. Player 1 had 8-Q off. To my disbelief the board ran him out a straight. I was knocked out in the very first hand.

                      Even to this day I wonder if I should have just folded and worried about getting deeper rather than doubling up.

                      I see Dave's point and also Sandtrap's. I think in this particular game eric is talking about I would look back on the that PSO night and somehow tell my hand to muck them cards!!! LOL


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
                        Preflop, the answer to this is zero.
                        Harrington would be ashamed for good reason... this person's play was horrific.
                        Dave, it depends how you look at it

                        The pro's don't mind spewing $1,000 every day for tournaments, so yes it's a bad play for a pro, because with the law of numbers, he will win 80% of the time. Which means he can afford to lose 20 tournaments in a row

                        But for the amateur, which probably represents 90% of the players at the tournament, all he wants to do, is make it into the money. They don't have time and money to play 20 x $1,000 tournament to be in the numbers. You don't know, this player could be there because it was on his bucket list, it could of been a gift from his kids

                        So to say it was a horrific play for him, I disagree, he's still playing, while the other player with AA's, well he's railing. But if it was a pro, I would agree with you.


                        • #13
                          l agree with both of you

                          but really, it's very hard to say what the right move is at any given time, meaning......
                          depending on many factors, i.e. feel at the table, chip stack, position etc.
                          in this case, it was the right move, but at another table or tourney, it may have been the wrong move,

                          to say that there was only one way to play it, may put you on the rail,

                          just the way l see it,

                          Last edited by effsea; Sat Jun 18, 2011, 11:36 PM.
                          Poker Rule #1....Never listen to me...hiccup

                          7 Time Bracelet Winner


                          • #14
                            Another thing I just thought and I'm sure Dave will agree

                            If it was only 2 players all in involve, the odds are huge compare to 4 players all in than the odds diminishes for the AA. In this case, this player folded and another folded to the all in. So prior to the folds, when it was his turn to call the all in, there was that strong possibility of seeing a 4 way all in and he opted to wait for a better situation this early in


                            • #15
                              ?? and then there is the guy who folded aces preflop on the big game- after winning 200k-- and would have stacked of to phil laaks- quad 6-- and lost it all 2 hands later- entirely diff i know- but if you havent seen it- is worth watching-------umbup:



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