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I need a little help again

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  • I need a little help again

    I would like this thread to contain your suggestions with regards to statistics you would like to see us gather in the software.

    I am talking about a situation where you will be able to track your own statistics of your play. I am not sure yet how far we can go with this so I am not making any promises. I do know however that we could store things like what percentage of flops you see in a tournament or what percentage of hands you win in a showdown. I still have to confirm if this will only be available for the duration of the current session you are in or whether we will be able to store this info ongoing for you.

    Just treat this like "The skies the limit" and I will read this post over the weekend and then discuss it with the team on Monday.

    Secondly, we could if wanted now show somewhere on the client the hand that you currently hold during a hand. I have seen this on at least one other software and wonder what you think about this.


  • #2
    Re: I need a little help again

    Originally posted by MARK
    Secondly, we could if wanted now show somewhere on the client the hand that you currently hold during a hand. I have seen this on at least one other software and wonder what you think about this.

    Just my opinion, but I'd say that reading the hand is the player's business and his alone. I've seen cases in Omaha games where an opponent didn't spot that they'd made a boat on the end and missed a betting chance. I don't think the s/w should "tell" them what they have - in fact I think this would be totally unrealistic. Does it happen anywhere else in the world of poker?




    • #3
      i agree with Glenn. if u can't read your hand, that;s your fault


      • #4
        Ditto to the two above, this is a school we should have learned to read the board by now.



        • #5
          As was stated above, I believe that showing the status of your hand during play is counterproductive to becoming a better poker player.

          However, declaring ALL shown hands is something I would very much like to see. Especially in Stud and Omaha games, as it is not always possible to read multiple hands in the time available at showdown and the games don't need additional delay between hands.

          As to ongoing player hand statistics I hold that those are mostly a short term measure and poker is a long term game. So session stats are misleading unless carefully intrepreted. Pct of flops seen is going to vary based on table size, so playing in small events with their resulting less than full table play will naturally lead to more flops seen,

          However, if an analytical tool such as the "PokerStat" that interprets Paradise hand histories and shows your results with different hands were available I would find that useful. I have not played at Paradise in over a year so I am no longer current on the latest features of PokerStat. Hopefully geezer will add his comments to this thread.

          Also I play on multiple computers, so having client side stats are okay for a session, but not for the longer term. The problem at the site with them is that they are reset to 0 whenever you disconnect.

          Since poker is a long term game, I think the focus needs to be on longer terms stats instead of immediate short term stats where variance is king. Knowing how I fare in Limit, vs Pot Limit vs No Limit HE is more important than how many flop I have seen this session or how many showdown I have won. Other questions such as "How well have I done with AKo in various positions?" or "Did I fold JTs too many times pre-flop?" are where games can be fine tuned and improved.

          Check out and let us know what you think.


          • #6
            I have a dream.

            As anyone who has followed this for the past year knows, I have been a "one issue candidate" about this matter. If you've had enough geezerism, just skip this rather long treatise.

            When one plays poker what one is doing on the whole is putting the data one observes into some sort of framework: "she never calls a check-raise without the nuts", "he checks the nuts on the turn to induce a river bluff", "raising all-in with a draw will work against so-and-so". Keeping these data in order and accessible to the often erratic human memory system is problematic, particularly as one ages (present company excepted).

            It also helps one's own ongoing reality check about one's own play to have records of how you've been doing in very specific terms, rather than "I do OK".

            The purpose of a school is to acquire the tools/habits that permit enhancement of these traits and the means for doing that is statistics. The lessons are about probability - what will happen over a long term of repeated iterations of random events; the interesting part is statistics - what actually happened when people saw too many flops (not individuals but overall) or slow-played AA UTG, etc. (add about 1000 "etcs")

            Session stats are of no use whatsoever.

            Ideally we would have access to a database containing all 10,000,000 hands and be guided with examples on how to query that database on our own. The event stats are already "sort of" available, although Chris (minpin) had to do an inordinate amount of hand searching to mine them out for PSO detail. "Privacy" could be sort of maintained, but not only could a perceptive miner find out who #1034 was but any concerns in that area are IMO just crude paranoia. Most of us can figure out who plays too many hands in fairly short order, etc. All us emperors are naked under those clothes anyway. It only takes about two rounds to know that geezer plays tight - it takes a little longer to learn that he's also aggressive at times, etc.

            PokerStat is the first of a wave of statistics tools that will make online play more "scientific" for better or worse. I can remember when baseball managers thought computers were useless and now they chart every pitch and all kinds of tendencies to guide game decisions.

            If we are to study poker we must move from probabilities to statistics because the latter contain the essential chaos (what Mike Caro calls the "law of loose wiring") that makes poker robots unlikely. There's just no good way of knowing what my "lucky hand" is or that on the way to the game I decided that I'd play the thirty-first hand dealt to me no matter what I had - and these factors (the maniac quits firing to flirt with the keno runner) not only matter, but skew probabilities in very significant ways.

            The greatest weapon against superstition (my AA "always" gets busted when I'm in the BB") is an array of facts gleaned from such a database as we've spent a year building.

            So - the key is to put the data into a usable database and provide all students with tools to glean clues from it about how various strategies can be expected to fare. Bring on the "deep money" variant and the "berserk time" section.

            This is the greatest (so far missed) opportunity of this whole undertaking.


            • #7
              Geezer, in order for this to be valuable information would the person doing the query need to know the identity of the players involved in the hands?

              We have now gone past 10 million hands and to be quite honest I now think we have something that will mean something in terms of real statistics. I agree with you that session statistics are not much use but I am thinking of allowing a player to collect statistics for all their play.

              I would like to have a database that started with 10 million hands and was added to in lumps of about 2 million at a time. I would then like to have players collect locally on their HD all their play.

              I wonder if that might give a player a clue as their standing in relation to the big picture.

              I am not sure that all this is possible but it seems to me that all this might not need to be rocket science.

              On this subject you have my attention right now. I am currently in need of moving a lot of the hand log data as our hard drives are filling up so now might be the right time to have this discussion.

              I still have to say that I cannot make public the detailed play of anyone except ones self when looking into the hand logs. In other words I would NOT be able to search that database to specifically nail down the average starting hand of Geezer. But maybe you could do that search yourself?



              • #8
                "anonymiz(s)ing" the players' names shouldn't be out of the question. Understand that one could still find out said identity with sufficient ingenuity/perseverance/skill.

                I think we tend to overestimate the importance of this matter. As Gary Carson correctly points out regularly: "there are no secrets".

                Just as someone else can find "how geezer plays in certain situations", so can geezer and in doing so can use that in the classic "I know that he thought that I believed that..." situations. The benefits to me of the "know thyself" stuff far outweighs any "edge" someone might have from knowing that I don't play AJs UTG at a full table - which they would probably deduce from other aspects of my "play".

                The availability of these large "chaotic" databases will IMO transform poker theory, mostly by showing that luck plays an even bigger role than heretofore claimed.

                You really just have to get over the notion that you have some important "secrets" about your play that might prove either embarrassing or costly. The growth of knowledge in the field is vastly more important than that anyone would find out how rarely I bluff.


                • #9
                  your asking for something that is not possible. the software is to buggy, it times you out when your holding the nuts, or when you have a great hand and there's a lot of betting. this has happened so often, that your rating takes a nose dive. maybe it happens to some, more than others, but until the software is solid, you have no way of doing what you ask.

                  as you know we here at the school play at other places where this doesn't happen at all. so you shuold look to the problems with your software before you do anything else.

                  your software is the reason i won't be re-subscribing this year. i like you and your staff, but you have problems you have not dealt with, and that reflects on how i view a site.


                  • #10
                    I don't think hand's should be read for players.

                    I do think that a GREAT feature would be a way to turn off the chip labels so that the amount of money in the pot is not displayed by default. This would be an option, and it is one that is present in a lot of other poker sw clients.

                    Here's the would add a button to the client that, when held down, would display the amount in the pot, and any bets and calls made since the beginning of the betting round (either the number of big or small bets, or the $ value...I would prefer it show number of small bets preflop and after the flop, number of big bets for the last two rounds). When you release the button, the numbers go away.

                    Why do I want this? Because a key skill that I am trying to develop is to keep track of the number of small or big bets in the pot so that I can track the pot odds for when it is my turn to act. This is something that would help me do that...I can develop the skill and then hit that button to make sure I am on target.

                    Although not something that would typically be present in an online poker client, for a school I think it would be good to build these kinds of things into the software as learning aids.

                    Of course, maybe this is something that everyone else finds easy to do...I find myself not concentrating closely enough many times and thus I am estimating the size of the pot...


                    • #11
                      I'll echo Geezer and suggest that names could be randomized to get around the secrets issue. But what I really want is to analyze my play afterwards with a complete hand history for the session. Session stats would not interest me since I don't see what they could tell me I don't already know about my play.

                      Thanks, Den


                      • #12
                        Shadrak, what you should actually be saying is that your machine times out a lot with our software. It is not the case with everyone at all. It is true that our software is very RAM hungry and those with limited resources can have problems. I have purposely built our software for the future, when in my opinion 512 MEGS of RAM will not be unusual.

                        There are other factors that can cause excessive time outs on our software. Being Java the software can have conflicts unfortunately with other applications. This can be avoided once you know what the conflicting applications are. I am not in a position to totally rewrite our client in another language. However, Java gives us some capabilities that others will not have in their software and I am happy from a commercial point of view with that balance.

                        Maradan, you seem to be saying that you do not want session stats and then in the next sentence you say you want the hand histories for a session. This is almost possible now and we are currently testing the hand history functionality.

                        Geezer, I am not trying to say that I have "secrets". I am saying that it would be very unethical if you could play poker against me and then after the session somehow look at the hand logs for that play and see all the hole cards you were not able to see during the actual game. Maybe you and I are talking about two different things here?



                        • #13
                          I'm sorry to be beating this horse again, but it isn't quite dead yet

                          I would like to see some effort to see that the software and features that we have can run efficiently on the average computer. I've told you my tale of woe regarding freeze-ups and time-outs, and I'm sure that of those those who aren't having such problems, many are avoiding it by just not upgrading the software.

                          I don't think it's the java, because I didn't have the problem until a couple of months ago.


                          • #14
                            Spenser, could you tell me what version you currently have installed? I mean the version of Java. Go to "about" in the lobby and let me know what version, 1.3 or 1.4 .

                            We have recently moved up to 1.4 (the latest java released version) with the future in mind. The downsides of 1.4 are that it is both a bigger download and requires abour 50% more memory than 1.3 .

                            Our minimum requirements now are moving up to 96 megs of RAM and I am aware that those with 64 megs are running into problems.

                            Recently I have been watching almost constantly my task manager for memory usage of various applications. I can see that Internet explorer is rather hungry for RAM. Right now, I have two windows open of IE . One is using 16 MEGS and the other 21 MEGS.
                            I also currently have my mail program open (OUTLOOK). It is using 14 MEGS.

                            Right now our software is open and it is using 33 MEGS.

                            You can see that having just 64MEGS is going to be a problem for anyone.

                            I am using win 2000 and cannot say if these kind of Memory usages would be different on other operating systems.



                            • #15
                              I would love to see session stats as Poker stars has, but would also like to be able to access my cumulative stats, if possible.

                              My previous system was a 200 meg with 64m ram..
                              I would lock up regularly just playing one tournie.

                              I am now running a P4 2 Gig with 512 meg Ram.. and 64m S/blaster and the most I have played, at one time, is 3 tournies here and one at pokerstars.
                              Although my system could cope with more my brain had serious problems.......... I would recommend the above system, which is probably entry level by now, as a minimum as it makes the whole experience very pleasant ( I am creeping up on 1000 tournies and just don't know how I managed to get through the 1st 800)




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