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Called Hands on the River

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  • Called Hands on the River

    In the thread started by Goofi entitled "Showdown?" aha12877 asked:
    if i have "muck losing hand" marked, and i call, i believe my hand doesn't show, however, since the rule (i believe it is a rule) that in a called hand the better (or raiser) is obligated to show hand 1st. does the hand show if it is a loser?
    I'm pretty sure that, if a player has "Muck Losing Hand" checked and his/her hand is not the winner then that hand won't show regardless of whether it was the bettor or the caller. I have stated before that I would like to see the "Muck Losing Hand" option gotten rid of.

    Online poker sites have a unique opportunity to enforce rules that players try to manipulate all the time. If the poker facility, online or b & m, really wished to make poker as fair as possible they would enforce all the rules that exist. Unfortunately I have never been in a poker room that does this. For instance:

    Poker is a game of rotation. That should be no different on the showdown than any other round. On the river, if there is a bet followed by a call, or calls then the bettor is obligated to turn his/her hand over first. It is then the obligation of the next player in rotation to turn his hand over, and so on and so on.

    In b & m games the bettor all too often sits there waiting for someone else to turn their hand over and if his/her hand is beaten it is then mucked. I believe that this could be stopped if the House enforced the rotation rule.

    Online there is a very simple solution to this problem.

    The first thing you have to do is get rid of the "Muck Losing Hand" option. It would then be the resposibility of the House/Site Owner to have the hands turned over in the proer manner. This is what should happen at the end of a hand.

    If there was no bet on the river then the first hand in rotation should be turned over. If this is a winning hand then I would have no problem allowing the rest of the hands to be folded. If the first hand is not a winning hand then the next hand in rotation gets turned over. If this is not a winning hand then the third hand in rotation gets turned over. etc.

    Some would argue that, if there is no bet on the river then the aggressor in a previous round shoud be the one to turn their hand over first.

    That would mean that if I was on the button and I raised pre-flop, and the hand was then checked by the whole table to the river, then I would be obligated to turn my hand over first. I disagree with this. I think each new round should start with the first person in the hand to the dealer's left and it should be that way on every round. Which means that if there is no bet on the river then it wouldn't matter who the aggressor on a previous round was. The hands would get shown down in order of rotation.

    Getting back to aha's situation. In this scenario, if the "Muck Losing Hand" option didn't exist then the bettor's hand would get shown even if it is a losing hand. And that's as it should be.

    At least, that's the way I see it.


  • #2
    That's a very interesting and explanatory piece of comentary. Nice reply Sarge.

    I've got to the point where I don't bother with the "muck losing hand". If it gets to a showdown and whether I lose or win, I don't have a problem explaining my rationale to anyone who wants to ask.

    Even more importantly, I'm sure that their constructive comments can only be helpful to me.

    Shoeless Joe


    • #3
      We Can Enforce the Rotation

      WE the players do it: don't need the house for enforcement!!

      In a B&M environment, simply don't turn your hand over till it's your turn.

      If you're last, wait till everyone else has shown. Say something to the dealer if the wait gets too long.

      If you're first, turn the "damxed" cards up!

      After just once or twice, the other players will begin to catch on.

      If you're last caller, and simply show your hand because you think it's a winner - this just gives everyone in front of you a chance to muck without showing.

      I don't think you can say anything bad about the "angle shooters" who don't show hands in turn IF you assist them, or let them get away with it by showing EARLY!



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