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Hand Question?

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  • Hand Question?

    Today in a $$ Tourney on Dynamite Poker, I was knocked out just out of the money on a hand, and I need some help with the technical aspect.

    I'm on the button. All fold to a short stack next to me who calls. I have KK and am the 3rd largest stack, so I raise $500. The big stack is in the BB and he calls. The short stack goes all-in, an additional $235 to me. Now, my read on the big stack is he doesn't want to let me get this heads up with small stack and is pushing an A. So, I want to raise all-in now, to stop him from playing and make it heads-up. The software would only let me call the $235, and not raise.

    Shouldn't I have been allowed to re-raise, since the all-in by the short stack was a $235 raise to me? Long story short, I lost the hand all-in when the big stack hit 2 pair on the river, but I think having him in the hand could have been avoided if the software allowed me to re-raise all-in and I pushed him out preflop.

  • #2
    I don't think the 235 all-in was enough to re-open the betting. It was in effect a call.


    • #3
      The software was correct. The additional $235 was an "underraise"...smaller than your original raise, and therefore you can only call the underraise.



      • #4
        Originally posted by Pokergoddess
        The software was correct. The additional $235 was an "underraise"...smaller than your original raise, and therefore you can only call the underraise.
        And this has always struck me as a ridiculous rule for big-bet poker. UTG 'underraises' allin, you have AA in MP and cannot bet what you like? Or does it only apply after a an underraise to a previous genuine raise?

        Maybe someone can explain the logic behind it?



        • #5

          Additionally, I asked at the table after the hand was over and no one had any idea why I couldn't re-raise.

          The $235 that the original caller added was in addition to the $500 I raised him (at that point he put in a total of $735 all-in), so in my mind...he raised me $235.

          Goddess, I would assume you can only "underraise" if you are going all-in? If not, I could envision scenarios, pot-odds situations, where I could have plenty of chips but, I would raise a raiser less then one bet (an "underraise") so I could see the flop at less then one more additional bet, but the exact pot-odds I wanted. This would not be allowed 'Goddess, or would it?

          I've never faced this situation before (live or net), so I guess I'll have to keep this in mind. Had I known this was the situation, I would have went all-in over the original caller.

          I'm with Rosita on this. If this is the rule, it's a ridiculous Big Bet rule. As long as there are two people with chips in the pot preflop, why should it get capped by some other small stack? Why should we have to wait until the flop to continue betting?


          • #6
            The general theory behind the rule is that you had your chance to raise big and did not take it. If you had not had such chance you could in fact raise. The purpose is to make it so that you can't "raise yourself".

            It's a little obscure but if you ponder it for a while you might see how it avoids a certain "angle" - and it's a pretty universal rule.


            • #7
              The bet by the all-in must be at least 1/2 of the original bet to be considered "action" and reopen the betting.

              A $500 bet sounds small, i.e. a invitation to callers, for that stage of a tourney but without stack sizes and antes/blinds information I can't confidently call it a slowplay gone bad.


              • #8
                Geezer has it ! The underaise puts you in a position that you would actually be re-raising your own raise. Like he says, it prevents a from of taking a shot. And yes, you can only underraise when you are going all in. 8O



                • #9
                  My "concept"

                  Joe, the analysis of my strategy wasn't really what I was looking for but, perhaps on second thought it is worth looking at.

                  The blinds were $300/150. I raised $500 here in an effort to get the big stack bb to call (he was calling with anything), and I guessed that the original shortstack caller would push all in. My thought was that at that point I would push all-in, and force the bb to fold and win heads up.

                  Had I understood the "underraise" concept, I would have either raised all-in immediately after the orignal shortstack caller pre-flop, or raised just $400, so that the bb would call, the shortstack would go all-in (more then 50% of a bet), and I could re-raise all in after that.



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