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PLO, JJT8ds BB

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  • PLO, JJT8ds BB

    A very good player raises EP, pot sized raise.

    Blinds at $300/$600.

    I've got JJT8ds.

    SB calls, saying he's going to put a bad beat on EP.

    Total Pot is now $4500, making it $1500 to me.


    I have $5600, EP and SB both approx $6,000.


    What do you do here?


    Randy


    PS The flop came J99, which is the only reason this hand registered.

    Although I did hit Time Button several times.

  • #2
    fold


    main reason in PLO i hate calling ANY raise unless either myself or the raiser is all in

    i would prefer to limp (cheap) raise reraise or fold

    as EP had made pot raise and sb had called your hand was in big trouble preflop yes the flop hit you but it would have cost you 25% of your stack to see it hit so only option was all in or fold and your hand was not quite strong enough to go all in

    Comment


    • #3
      Fold.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm gonna be different here and call, for a number of reasons.

        1) With a solid EP raiser and a caller, it is very likely that all the aces kings and queens, or a good number of them are in play - so there is a good chance the flop will miss them.

        2) Your hand is an easy one to release from, and a great one to win with. You have set, straight and flush potential, and while you have to be careful with the flushes - I think the SB calling makes your call justifiable.

        3) Even with calling, you still have enough chips to do damage if the flop misses you.

        Now the funny thing with this hand is I would tend to fold this hand in the face of a raise, usually limp with it - but fold if raised. You can make an argument here for folding and not be wrong, but myself, I'd call in THIS situation. The way to win a PLO tournament is NOT waiting for AA and KK hands. This doesn't mean play something like K952 double suited - but IMO your hand is one of the better PLO hands out there.

        Hazy

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: PLO, JJT8ds BB

          Originally posted by rggator
          PS The flop came J99, which is the only reason this hand registered.

          Although I did hit Time Button several times.
          At least one, maybe both, of those players have you out-gunned. Probably an AA hand vs a QQT9/9988 or somesuch. If it flops small/medium, the mouthy SB will bet out. Your only hope is a 'perfect' flop such as Jxx, Q97, TTx, T97 .

          Too few chances and bad position, for too much of your stack.
          IMO

          Comment


          • #6
            Here is an interesting bit of analysis from Rolf in the latest issue of Card Player, while not exactly the same hand, it is very similar. And while he speaks of ring game strategy, I think it applies to tourneys as well.

            ------------------

            Hand No. 2: J 10 9 8 (ds)

            Analysis: Now, here’s a real Omaha hand! Any good pot-limit player will know this is a premium hand, and in some cases it might be worth your entire stack, even before the flop. You will hit lots of excellent flops with this type of hand: straight plus redraws, a big wrap, a pair plus a wrap, or two pair plus an open-ender — each with a possible flush draw to go with it, creating the possibility of a huge draw. Still, it’s important to emphasize that if you flop only a flush draw with no other outs, your hand should be mucked. It is only in combination with the big straight draw or the made straight that the flush cards become important. They may give you added redraw/freeroll possibilities, or they may give you such a powerful draw that you become a mathematical favorite over almost any made hand, and you might choose to play the draw aggressively rather than passively.

            Early position: In pot-limit Omaha, I almost always come in for a baby raise whenever I’m the first one in; I hardly ever come in flat. You want to build a nice pot with this hand, which is very strong, even in early position. When you raise occasionally with this type of hand, your opponents might figure you for bigger cards than you have, and you might get a lot of action when you flop a monster like 7-6-5. Depending on stack size, the aggressiveness of your opponents, and the exact flop, you might make a lot of money by going for the check-raise when the flop is favorable (when medium cards flop).

            Late position: You have a big hand, which is even stronger in late position. You want to create a big pot, and you don’t mind having lots of opponents (in fact, the more, the merrier). Don’t even think about just calling here. You have a raising hand — so treat it as such.

            Against a raise: Against one raise, your hand is definitely playable. In fact, I would sometimes reraise rather than call, simply to disguise my hand. If my opponents are figuring me for aces when I hold this type of hand, I might make a lot of money if I hit the flop, and bluff them out when I miss — a pretty favorable situation, to say the least. Against two raises (indicating aces), this hand is still playable, especially when there’s enough money left to bet after the flop (implied odds). You don’t mind being up against aces here, because your cards are live, as opposed to the reraiser’s hand. You do mind being up against someone holding the same type of hand that you do, but just a little bit bigger (Q J 10 9) — your premium hand is in very bad shape here

            Comment


            • #7
              Hazy, the depth of money in a cash game would be much deeper than in this tourney example. Wouldn't that have some bearing on Rolf's advice not applying here? Is there a big enough pay off when you hit that perfect flop? You expect you are behind now, so the hand is marginal. I think the price to pay preflop is too steep for a marginal hand.

              I also don't think position is that important in this example due to it being easy to get all-in on the flop. In fact, the money is probably too shallow as we can't put in an all-in check raise, so we will usually have to win a showdown as I doubt both players would fold if we bet straight out either. I don't play omaha though.

              Comment


              • #8
                The point I was trying to make was not related to depth of money or the varied differences between a ring game and tourneys - it was that the hand is a premium hand, and not a trash hand. People overvalue AA and KK in PLO - do they have value, certainly, but they are nowhere near the monsters they are in Hold Em. JJT8 double suited is a VERY strong hand in PLO and I think it is justified to call 1200 with 3500 already in the pot.

                But, it looks as if I am in the minority here - but ME, in this situation, I play it.

                Hazy

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think I'd much prefer the JT98 to the JJT8.
                  The latter is totally dependent on finding a 9 out there somewhere to make the straight (apart from AKQ on board of course, which is quite a lot to hope for )

                  But you may be right. Maybe folding this is too tight. Rolf's opinion would be very interesting, so off we go .... :wink:

                  Meantime I don't think one can ignore the depth of money. But's that's just another opinion...

                  cheers

                  Glenn

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rosita
                    I think I'd much prefer the JT98 to the JJT8.
                    The latter is totally dependent on finding a 9 out there somewhere to make the straight (apart from AKQ on board of course, which is quite a lot to hope for )
                    Shoot, you beat me to it.

                    I think the JT98 is WAY better than the JJT8. With JJT8, the main feature of your hand (the JJ) already puts you way behind the raiser (who, in this example, DID have AA, as it was me), and, as Glenn said, you're needing to get much luckier on the flop than you would with JT98.

                    I think your fold was fine. With someone flat calling behind, it's entirely possible that a lot of your cards are already dead (as they were here; I believe the caller had QQT9 or something like that).

                    As always -- DON'T PLAY RESULTS.

                    Chris

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ironic Chris that this hand is "foldable" in your opinion in the face of a raise, but you played a similar hand (albeit not identical) in the face of a raise a few weeks earlier (you know which hand I'm talking about).

                      Like I said, I'm in the minority here - but I would have played this hand, even KNOWING it was BlackAces doing the raising (because trust me, I know what he's raising with).

                      Aaron

                      P.S. For the record, I don't think JT98 ds is WAY better than JJT8 ds, marginally better IMO.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by thehazyone
                        Ironic Chris that this hand is "foldable" in your opinion in the face of a raise, but you played a similar hand (albeit not identical) in the face of a raise a few weeks earlier (you know which hand I'm talking about).
                        Many essential differences come to mind: number of other players (4 instead of 2), probable composition of said players' hands in relation to cards I would need (many cards JJT8 would need could likely be already out), probable commitment of chips based on raiser's stack (minimal in my case vs. substantial in Randy's case), and -- most importantly -- 9987 does not contain a gap.

                        Incidentally, I'm interested to know why you think JT98 is only marginally better than JJT8.

                        Chris

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Incidentally, I'm interested to know why you think JT98 is only marginally better than JJT8.
                          Because Jacks have been "running" a lot lately?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            didn't realize there were 4 other players, thought it was min, another caller and yourself. That does change it (pot odds).

                            As for why I think JJT8 ds is almost of the same value as JT98 ds - while there is the "gap" there is some replacement value in the pair of jacks (in the small chance that you flop a set). I'd rather have JJT8 ds than 9987 ds, especially with just two people in the pot (4 people in the pot, then I might lean towards the lower hand, for reasons we've discussed before).

                            Anyway, as always, interesting discussion, even if I am wrong.

                            Aaron

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              IMO, the "replacement" value given by the jacks is not nearly enough to offset the gap in this hand. The pair is not what you're trying to draw to, really; you want to try and make either a straight or 2 pair, and the pair in your hand makes it more difficult to accomplish either goal than if you had the four-card rundown.

                              Chris

                              Comment

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