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Opinions Please

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  • Opinions Please

    Pardon me for the next few minutes, I'm steaming a bit.

    How many times have you seen a player play completely ridiculous cards, hit some miracle, only to say "I hit the wrong button when I raised"?

    How about someone raising, reraising, capping with complete junk and then saying "I have to go soon" after the hand?

    Would you consider this somewhat of an angle shoot in a PSO tournament? Someone playing and raising with hands they'd never normally play, considerably altering the outcome of hands they wouldn't normally be in.

    Or are these people just completely clueless and making excuses about their horrible play?

    If someone had to go, why not just P&F? And why is it always AFTER they play sh*t cards, take 80% of your chips on some suckout that they decide to reveal "oh, I have to leave soon"?

    I just don't buy it. This happened tonight, both comments from the SAME person. I had a fairly decent starter in O8, A3QQ but it was three bet preflop and I folded in the BB. On the flop a player revealed "oops, wrong button".

    About 20 minutes later this same person is raising and reraising with complete junk. When I saw the hand I made a comment asking about it and the person said "I have to go soon". So, said person with whatever stack they had left continued the raise raise raise strategy until they almost had the chip lead at the table. When I said "I thought you had to leave" they said "nope, I was lying".

    I folded several playable hands during this raising tirade, trying to stay out of the way until this person busted. It was pretty much too late though, I had gone from 11K to around 2.5K on two hands with this person before they revealed "I have to go".

    This person later revealed that they love to "hear them squeal". Also said they wouldn't sweat any comments from a "kid".

    Well, eat your heart out - I am taking an extended leave from PSO. Of course it's not all your fault - it would be stupid to get all worked up over one clueless player. It's the fact that there is a much greater percentage of people at PSO willing to play bingo just to see the reaction of those trying to learn and improve, than there are serious players wanting to learn the game.

    In the real world - welcome to my ring game all day long. If, after over 75 O8 tournaments you still haven't got the first clue what a decent starting hand is - that's your problem not mine. The fact is, this is a school and to me it's gotten under my skin too much to see a majority of "students", even after hundreds of tournaments playing like they can't even see their cards.

    I may be a "kid", but in my relatively short life I've learned more about this game than you can ever hope to understand. Age doesn't automatically give you knowledge - it is actually quite a statement to have so much experience and yet know so little.

    Playing at PSO has ceased to be productive for me, I'll see you guys around.

  • #2
    You must be steaming....some of the "facts" and "quotes" as you recall them are a bit inaccurate. I was at the table, as you know, and although I missed the first comment about "wrong button". The second comment after 3 betting pre-flop was "...I have to go to dinner". I was the one who laid down the "scooper" hand in that pot, would have made a wheel which would have taken both high and low. When questioned about "leaving" the player said...."I don't have to leave, I was joking"....NOT "I was lying." Not a great difference, but you made it sound a bit worse than it was actually said, and since you "quoted" it, should try to get it correct. You then accused this player of "angle shooting" which you know, I dissagree with your accusation. In live play a player many times will raise or re-raise and make any comment they want....they may tell what cards they have, or be lying about what cards they have, they may say they erred, they may say lots of things....I've heard em all. I don't consider ANY of those actions taking shots. Taking a shot is, for example, shorting the pot, by splashing, making a "balk" move toward the pot causing a subsequent player to act, misscalling your hand at showdown...that sort of thing. What was going on was no different than "maniac" play, except for the fact, that you had different expectations of the player, either based on experience with the player or because of comments made, but it was really no different than someone with no clue how to play 08 sucking out on any of many hands that happens all the time. You made a raise with AAQ6 dbl suited. In my opinion, in 08 that is not such a good hand to raise with, but it's your chips and you have the right to throw em anywhere you like. Is this person a good 08 player? I don't know. You did fail to mention another comment by the same player that they were "just learning this game"...perhaps their strategy is not the same as yours or textbook, but they do have every right to employ it. I also don't recall you being called a "kid"...I recall the player saying "you should learn to be as gracious a loser as you are a winner" and that "you have a very long time yet to live before you've seen it all"...not quite as derogatory as you make it seem, I think.
    If you have trouble accepting that people will make decisions in poker based on the wildest concepts you could possibly imagine, I fear you're always gonna find yourself steaming. I didn't like not scooping the 7K in chips either, but my not caling with my Q234 was a decision I made, and I live with it. May not like it, but not gonna let it drive me to quit. Part of the "learning" that you speak often about at PSO, is also learning to deal with your emotions. Not easy for any of us, but something that is an absolute must if you continue to play poker.
    I hope you feel better after time has eased the temper!



    • #3
      A few things:

      First, you're correct... I misquoted. The person did say "joking" which I think is just as bad.

      AAQ6ds in that situation was raised because:

      1) I was in late position
      2) There had been only one limper. Raised in hopes of getting heads up with a hand that has great scoop potential and hopefully get blinds to fold junk.

      Of course we all have our reasons for playing certain hands... and as this is a school I am always willing to discuss why I played a hand a certain way.

      It was after you left that the person said "kid". Someone told the person not to sweat it and the person's response was something to the effect of "don't worry, I wouldn't sweat comments from a kid".

      The point(s) I was trying to get across are these:

      1) The person's comment about being a beginner at the game is ludicrous - over 75 O8 tournaments is far from a "beginner" - unless we're dealing with a very low IQ.

      2) In the real world I expect and enjoy players making completely boneheaded moves. On average I'll spend 6-8 hours in a session and most of the time I'll never utter a word. I certainly don't say anything about the play.

      3) This is a school, and as such I assume people are here to learn. I guess that assumption is completely wrong - in fact it's already been estimated by others that perhaps 3%-5% of the folks are here to get better. Honestly - if I wanted to play against morons I could play on the free side. Or freerolls at pstars. Or even low $1-$3 buy in tourneys, or micro blind no limit. Playing at PSO doesn't really have any benefit at this point (for me at least), as the morons completely outnumber the serious players.

      This isn't a spur of the moment decision - it's something that's been rolling around for a while. PSO has become a shadow of it's former self. The forum was a great resource at one time, full of great poker discussion... now it's become an a$$ kissing contest.


      • #4
        i wasn't at that table....but i've been at that table many times. people will sometimes do things just to get a reaction; at other times they will be trying to get even for something someone said to them ( play like a maniac! your a fool! ), or something else that they take as an insult; and sometimes they are just bad players who are getting lucky by doing maniac manuevers. i see this all the time. i just grin (not really), and bare it, because i've seen this sort of player being #1 many, many times... that is #1 leaving the tournament. emotions are part of poker; controlling them is part the learning curve.


        Time is the fire we all burn in


        • #5
          Can I ask you?
          How often and how much time do you spend playing in low limit buy in tournaments, and ring games? I think PSO is an absolute reflection of the overall poker world. If I'm hitting cards, I love these guys...if I'm not, I have to quit that day, or look for a different game make-up. Perhaps, because at PSO we only have available the game "of the hour", and cannot select a different game, it's more frustrating...but honestly, this is very typical of what I see every single day, and I'm in a poker room a minimum of 8 hrs a day, a minimum of 4 days a week. I'm only saying that you are going to be dealing with this ALL the time in poker, it's not a PSO thing, it's a people thing...personality, bankroll, motivation, moods, liquor, hormones, whatever....people are an unpredictable lot.



          • #6
            Hey Minpin,

            I wasn't there and I cannot speak for the other player, but I can tell you that I have hit the wrong button. I've done it several times when I wasn't really paying attention to the game (working, reading, emailing, etc).

            I've also hit the wrong button when I've been playing 2 games at once. So, I know it does happen. And before anyone asks, yes, I know how to adjust the settings and move the screens around.

            Peace, Starrs LSOGC - The James Gang

            PS. I'll miss you if you take a break.


            • #7
              I think PSO is an absolute reflection of the overall poker world.
              Right, so playing poker (or learning to play poker) isn't the primary reason to be active in PSO. Why not play for real money? Certainly one could survive in a .25-.50 game for quite a few months with a $150 BR.

              My reasons for joining and participating have been to learn and improve. I feel that I've learned what I can. I've put in enough hours, I've seen enough hands, I've "experienced" swings and all the emotions that go with them.

              Let me ask you this pg... after all these years in poker, why are you still in the box? You've often talked about "seeing it all"... why not apply that knowledge as a player? Why do you spend endless hours at PSO?


              • #8
                I PLAY poker live action in tournaments or ring games about 3 or 4 times a week. I'm certainly not motivated. bankrolled, or proficient enough to be a pro and never proported to be. Personally, I play to suplement my income. Because I have the opportunity to play so much, not only on my own time, but as a prop player, I am content to settle for smaller wins and accept smaller losses than most people who don't have the same opportunity, as far as time to play.
                The reason I'm still in the box, is that I like dealing poker..I like my players, my co-workers, and the lifestyle that the job affords me. After all, it does pay pretty well. I do use the knowledge of my dealing to the same players regularly when I play, and it is somewhat of an advantage over a stranger.
                Finally, a .25/.50 game is just plain boring to me, so it holds no interest to me at all. As for the time I spend at PSO...I have nothing else to do when I'm at home. My puter is located where I can watch TV, or do whatever else I want to and still it passes the time, and there are lots of people, including you, who I enjoy interacting with at PSO. I also have met Mark, and others here and support what he is doing.
                Hope this answers your questions.



                • #9
                  Hey Chris,

                  When one of the so called “maniacs” makes one of their typically bad plays and wins a pot they had no business entering in the first place and then the loser begins to whine about how bad a play it was, I usually ask the same question:

                  “Did you really NOT want that person to play those cards?”

                  If your answer is “yes” then I suggest you haven’t really learned a thing.

                  I your answer is “no” then you have to be prepared when these players take you down because it’s going to happen on a regular basis and you have to learn to deal with it.

                  I would also like to know if you want the “maniacs” to go away. Or, would you like them to start playing a whole lot better?

                  Either way you would have a situation that is much worse than the one you’ve got. Everyone would be playing at a much higher level and your chances of winning would be much worse than they are now.

                  The pros and the better players who make money at the game, make it because the so-called “maniacs” exist. If they didn’t, poker wouldn’t. Take away all the bad players and there would be no game. When was the last time you saw a ring game with a table full of the best players in the game. It doesn’t happen.

                  Watch any game where there are a few good players taking money from a few tourists. When the tourists run out of money and leave the game, the game breaks. That’s because the good players aren’t going to sit there watching their chips take a tour around the table without anyone pulling ahead.

                  As for your suggestion that the comments that these players make somehow being angles, as Pokergoddess says, and I agree, (paraphrasing now) “What a person says in defense for why he played the hand the way he did is totally irrelevant. Whether he claims to have hit the wrong button or he’s playing like a maniac because he has to leave, even if it’s not true, is totally irrelevant. Why he’s playing badly doesn’t matter. All that matters is that he is playing badly.” And, if you don’t want him to play badly, then what are you doing in the game?

                  I do take issue though with one thing Pokergoddess wrote about what players may say during the play of a hand.

                  She wrote:

                  “In live play a player may raise or re-raise and make any comment they want….they may tell what cards they have or be lying about what cards they have. They may say they erred. They may say lots of things…I’ve heard them all. I don’t consider ANY of those actions taking shots.”

                  Being a professional dealer it surprises me that goddess would write something like that.

                  Unless you are heads-up stating what cards you have in your hand during the play of that hand is not just taking a shot, angling, or poor etiquette. It’s simply against the rules. It doesn’t matter whether you are lying or telling the truth. It’s just not allowed. If you engage in this activity the dealer should let you know that you are not allowed to do this. If you continue the house should let you know that it is not acceptable behavior. If they don’t they are not doing their jobs properly.

                  In his third post minpin wrote:

                  “My reasons for joining and participating have been to learn and improve. I feel that I’ve learned what I can. I’ve put in enough hours. I’ve seen enough hands. I’ve “experienced” the swings and all the emotions that go with them."

                  This is not put down Chris, but it seems you need to stick around and learn some more. If you allow the maniacs to run you off then it seems you don’t have control over your emotions. And if you want a game that’s free of all maniacs then I think you’re on the wrong track.

                  I hope you’ll stick around and play and participate in the forums. I believe there is some excellent advice posted here and one can learn a lot by participating. Sure, you have to sift through some garbage, but there really are some gems if you’re interested in looking for them.

                  If you choose to leave anyway, then I wish you the best in your future endeavors and hope you beat up on the competition.

                  Take care…..sarge


                  • #10
                    Sorry, but it's not uncommon for players to say what they may or may not be playing in a hand. It happens all the time and is not against any rule I know of, except in tournament play. I did fail to mention that, which of course would have applied in this situation since it was a tournament we were playing in, but in this instance no cards were mentioned, as I was just sighting examples of things that do happen in real play. In a tournament, it IS allowed if you LIE about what you have, but if you tell the truth about what cards you hold, there is a penalty.



                    • #11
                      opinions please

                      SO MIN WHO WAS THIS PLAYER ?


                      • #12

                        This wasn't a known "maniac" (as far as I'm concerned). And I wasn't complaining about a loss - please read my original post a bit more carefully. As I've said before, 95% of poker tournaments are going to end up in a loss - if you're not prepared to lose then poker isn't the game for you.

                        My complaint was about the "I hit the wrong button" or "I have to leave soon" that some players will use after they play some piece of cheese. Enough bullsh*t... if someone wants to play cards they know are losers long term - accept it and move on... please don't insult other player's intelligence by lying about motivations. I certainly don't. In her post pokergoddess even questioned a hand I raised preflop and I gave my exact reasons for doing it. If one's reasons involve "I was bored", or "these are my lucky cards" that's great! Of course I want you in my game - and obviously I love it when players don't have a clue. But altering the outcome of hands by playing cards you would never normally play because "you have to go" is unethical in my book. Post and fold and leave quietly. So many times I've seen someone say they have to go... then go all in with T4o... only to win the pot and put someone out playing a legit hand. How does that even resemble a competitive poker environment?

                        Further insulting is the idea that at 27 years old, I'm some sort of child who doesn't know anything about the world yet. Please.

                        bmc - it doesn't matter who it was - take your pick of the hundreds of players at PSO who play just like them.

                        The best part about this whole thing is that just over a week ago this player posted that they were playing like an idiot and needed help. Some gems from that thread:

                        "Tighten up your game and play like a rock"

                        "seeing you all in with J 3 tonight was a bit of a surprise"

                        "It is especially interesting because the one who tries it and finds that it actually works then doesn't continue with it."

                        Why even ask for advice if you're just going to ignore it? Why pretend like you're here to learn?

                        goddess: thanks for the info on your dealing/playing...


                        • #13
                          Pokergoddess wrotedidn't realize I had left out the second "d" the first time.)

                          In a tournament, it IS allowed if you LIE about what you have, but if you tell the truth about what cards you hold, there is a penalty.
                          Please! Let's stop perpetuating this myth.

                          The cards are dealt face down for a reason. Saying what you have in your hand is tantamount to turning your hand face up for all to see. And it's done to try to manipulate players into doing what they wouldn't otherwise have done if you hadn't said what you have in your hand.

                          What do you think would happen if everybody at the table turned their cards face up or stated what cards they had. The game wouldn't exist. It's just as wrong for one person to do it as it is for the whole table to do it. And that's why there is a rule against it. Whether you've read it in a rule book or not, it exists.

                          And suggesting that it's ok if you are lying but not ok if you are telling the truth is totally ridiculous. And it doesn't matter if it is tournament play or ring game. And it's just not allowed.

                          If it happens in your poker room on a regular basis, and it's allowed to continue, that poker room is not being run properly.



                          • #14
                            LIKE IT IS OR NOT AT ALL

                            MINPIN: AND TO THE WHOLE SCHOOL MEMBERS: If you're going to get in the forum and rant and rave about someones game, then tell it like it was, not how you saw it. Yes, I asked for advice, and I have been sticking pretty close to that advice, BUT that was holdem. The game you, minpin are talking about is omaha 08. which I do not play well, ops: every hand looks like a good hand to me. I do admit that. the remarks I made I also told you I was kidding. I hit the wrong button ONE TIME, and right away I announced that, BEFORE THE FLOP. I AM SORRY FOR THAT. THE REST SOUNDS LIKE SOUR GRAPES.


                            WHAT IN HELL DOES A PERSON RAISE FOR IF IT IS'NT TO REDUCE THE PLAYING FIELD? I have folded lots of hands that would have won, if someone had'nt raised.
                            Like I said ,you have a lot to learn when it comes to losing. and that is all I have to say about that.
                            I did'nt want to even reply to this as it sounds like you will always be right no matter what anybody else says.

                            If you want to leave that will be a lose for the school, as you have done a lot of good work and is appreciated, but don't leave because of this. The real world is full of a lot worse players then me and like someone said, you want them in the game. I do apoligize for upsetting you.


                            • #15

                              It's not sour grapes. This was at least the third time I've been at your table in the past two months where you've justified your play by saying "I have to leave soon". Remember, we got in an argument about it not too long ago where I told you the same thing - I think it's unethical to alter the outcome of hands you probably wouldn't normally play just because you don't feel like playing any more. What do you think the "Post and Fold" option is for?!

                              It wasn't just one hand, it was several hands. I completely changed the way I was playing at the table because of the comments you made about leaving. You were doing a lot of raising out of position with horrible O8 starting hands and I wanted to let you bust before I got involved. Others were reraising trying to isolate you. Few O8 hands are worth three bets preflop - especially when the blinds are large in proportion to stack sizes. Basically any hand coming in better be ready to go all in. Of course short term that type of play can yield fantastic results - if you get lucky enough. And those unlucky enough to be at the table get to see some awful short term results, even if playing solidly.

                              I have nothing against people playing whatever style they want. I took issue with your "joking". Basically, it was lying.

                              The game you, minpin are talking about is omaha 08. which I do not play well, every hand looks like a good hand to me.
                              There have been countless books written on Omaha. There are tons of web resources - the most common subject being starting hand requirements for profitable play. You've played 80 Omaha Hi/Lo tourneys at PSO. At what point do you get tired of not having a clue and actually apply some of this time to something useful?

                              The truth is, you don't really want to learn. You want to play every hand, play crazy sometimes, have a good laugh at someone like me when I get all bent out of shape by your play, etc. etc. etc. That's fine - play however you want... but please don't waste my (and others) time pretending you want help, and pretending you'll listen to advice.

                              On the turn you raised someone's bet into a paired board that also had three hearts, in a five way hand in O8 with no low and a pair of 9s for high. Need I say more?

                              Like I said ,you have a lot to learn when it comes to losing. and that is all I have to say about that.
                              I sure hope I never become like a lot of the folks I see around here... so accustomed to losing that it doesn't matter any longer. I'm competitive, I hate to lose - and if I ever "lose" my competitive fire I think I'd be less effective in all aspects of my life.



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