PokerStars homepage
  • If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pot Odds in Tournaments?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Pot Odds in Tournaments?

    I've been reading a lot recently, here on the forum, about pot odds, implied odds and so on.

    The fact is that I realise that I know very little about odds. However, I am keen to know whether I am actually at a disadvantage knowing so little about this subject or not? I'm thinking about this solely from the Tournament perspective ie pot/no-limit holdem.

    In a tournament I'm concentrating quiet a lot on survival, in order to get to the final table, but obviously have an eye on stack building as well. I dont want to bust out of the tournament on say a flush draw if it means going all-in only to find I missed the flush even if I had correct odds. ( Not that I would know what the odds of the draw are or pots odds required to make the play anyway! )

    The above example asumes that its passed the re-buy stage. I've just played my first live tourney and during the re-buy period I noticed a lot of players often all-in drawing to flushes & straights. Maybe they were getting correct odds or just gambling I dont know. I didn't play like this myself as I didn't want to have to rebuy too much, but perhaps cost myself the chance of building a stack.

    I'm not sure the about the best way to approach the re-buy period and how significant my limited knowledge of odds is.

    Theres probably a couple of questions in one here, but and advice would be most welcome.

    Thanks in advance.

    Marco 12345

  • #2
    Pot Odds in Tournaments?

    Truthfully basics are sufficient but I myself play the player the position and stack in tournies

    jg

    Comment


    • #3
      In O8 and O high, odds are everything, even in a tourney. (With some reservation).

      In NLHE, Pot odds are important in many situations. But just because you have the coorect odds to call, does not mean you always do. It is very situational. (Don't you hate that.....) It would take a book to describe what I mean here. One example.

      $11,000 in the pot and you are drawing for an inside str8 on the river. You have $5K left. The call is $1000 to you. Personally, I would let this one pass even though you have almost the exact correct odds.

      Randy

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rggator
        $11,000 in the pot and you are drawing for an inside str8 on the river. You have $5K left. Personally, I would let this one pass even though you have almost the exact correct odds.

        Randy
        Eh? Maybe I misunderstand this. You are about 11-1 to make the str8, assuming you have no other outs. If the flop bet puts you all-in, the pot offers about 3-1 Don't get it rg :?:

        cheers

        Comment


        • #5
          Rosi, I changed it, was playing and writing and forgot to put $1000 call.

          oops


          Randy

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Pot Odds in Tournaments?

            Originally posted by Marco 12345
            I noticed a lot of players often all-in drawing to flushes & straights. Maybe they were getting correct odds or just gambling I dont know
            Depends.... :roll:

            In a b+m rebuy tournament, it's probably the case that the stack/blind ratio is quite low (shallow money), especially towards the end of the rebuy period. If those players with excellent draws can expect a 2-1 or better return on their bets, then it's a fair deal. That might often be true with players gamb00ling and boosting the pot.

            However, in a PSO tournament, early-middle stages (deep money) it's a gamble whether you'll get the right odds to pursue your draw. If an opp with a set or top 2 pair spots the flush draw and bets huge on the flop (or wherever the draw becomes obvious),you might be getting not much more than evens on your big draw. If they bet smaller, your big draw gets the benefit of 'implied odds' (the money you might make on later rounds when your draw hits, and you can squeeze extra chips out of them). Regrettably, they might well shut down when the 3rd flush card hits, giving you a 'bad' return on your gamble (i.e. it tends to cost more than it gains). And they might check/raise a bigger flush than you, or the flush card might pair the board and they check/bust your nut flush with their boat.....and so it goes....

            Marco - it's all very difficult. It sure is for me. It'll take a jillion years for the 'right' and 'wrong' marginal wrinkles + technicalities to balance out. It's certainly more simple+reliable to play ABC poker with big cards. But if you want that vital extra edge, then you probably have to add a lot of accurate observation+calculation to the mix. Personally, I don't have the skill/motivation. Some here at PSO clearly do, and you can tell who they are...

            cheers

            Glenn

            cheers

            Glenn

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rggator
              Rosi, I changed it, was playing and writing and forgot to put $1000 call.

              oops


              Randy
              Got it. Thought for one horrible moment you might be steaming drunk or something 8O
              Or, maybe I was 8O 8O

              Comment


              • #8
                $11,000 in the pot and you are drawing for an inside str8 on the river. You have $5K left. The call is $1000 to you.
                Well, you should call. But the big mistake in the hand was letting a situation develop where there is an 11k pot and you only have a 5k stack.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Regrettably, they might well shut down when the 3rd flush card hits, giving you a 'bad' return on your gamble (i.e. it tends to cost more than it gains).
                  This will be one factor in determining your implied odds. How hidden your draw is. Ability of opponent etc.

                  Good post glenn.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I am going to add another few cents to this.

                    In NLHE, the money is made (borrowing from Apryll) by figuring out the table dynamics, and getting your money in when you are fairly confident you have the best of it by far (as long as the money is not too shallow--then you got to take your coin tosses sometimes).

                    Calling for odds in NLHE, IMO, is not the way to go. Sure, you do sometimes for smaller amounts when the money is deep (borrowing from Noodles now). Say you limp from the button with 89 (o or s). The flop is rainbow 67Q. The money is deep. $1200 in the pot and the bet is $200 to you and you are last to act of 4 players. You have 6 to 1 pot odds, and maybe 2 to 1 against making your hand. An obvious call.

                    But in a tournament, I do not call for 20% of my stack with only close to even pot odds vs drawing odds. (My example in earlier post may have been bad, but hey...)

                    Randy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rggator
                      But in a tournament, I do not call for 20% of my stack with only close to even pot odds vs drawing odds. (My example in earlier post may have been bad, but hey...)
                      Something still doesn't feel right to me about this. Either this is a very rare occurance, or you should not be calling here in a cash geme either as it looks like it would break a pretty basic principle of big-bet play.

                      Example that makes me think this. 600 in pot. Say you have 1k left. Opponent bets 200, so you are getting 4-to-1. Imagine you are a 4-to-1 dog to make your hand. Randy, you are saying you wouldn't call here in a tournament. I am saying you should not be calling here whether it is a cash game or a tournament. Calling would be a big mistake I think. In fact, having a 600 pot with only 1k stack before this 200 bet seems like a big mistake has already been made in the hand to get to that point in the first place. Which is why I cannot see the situation you, randy, describe in your example ever occuring without you having made a basic mistake in the first place.

                      Give me an example that will apply without having made a basic mistake to get in that situation. I am struggling to think of any.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Noodles

                        I think that the example (11 to 1, $5000 left) was just bad.

                        Please see my other post of example that truly happened in a sat.

                        I am interested in your input on this one.


                        Thank,

                        Randall, the LUCKY PSO PLAYER

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Noodles

                          Originally posted by rggator
                          I think that the example (11 to 1, $5000 left) was just bad.

                          Please see my other post of example that truly happened in a sat.
                          I saw and answered. Calling would be a basic mistake whether cash or tournament. So it still doesn't illustrate your point, that I have a problem with, about pot odds.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X