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Folding KK pre flop, I was attacked

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  • Folding KK pre flop, I was attacked

    So i was attacked online and told i should quit poker because i answered a discussion on would you fold kk pre flop to which my answer was never if i was heads up or not all in, i would be 3 betting and raising in the hopes of taking it pre flop or getting it heads up i would however fold them pre flop to a multiway all in which in the situation of 4+ all ins i am like a massive underdog something like 4-1 i think. this is in relation to a tournament environment.

    I was told i should quit poker as i clearly can't play. I again do not understand this behaviour if you do not agree have a counter argument but i have no patience for these type of people

    I am not risking my tournament life on a multiway all in with a one pair hand unless the circumstances really call for it where I'm very short
    Bracelet Winner



  • #2
    Folding KK can be the right play especially at the start of a tournament.

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    • #3
      In a normal tourney or cash game (i.e. not a satellite, league game, or an early level of a prestigious deepstacked tourney like the WSOP main event), you should pretty much always try to get all in with kings pre-flop unless the action and your reads indicates that someone has aces. You might not have more than 40% equity against 3 other players, but if you have the best hand, it's extremely profitable to play for stacks, due to the pot odds.

      e.g. If 3 players are all in and their ranges are something like 99+/AK/AQs, you've got 38% equity, but you're only contributing 25% of the pot. A 38% chance of winning 3 stacks, with only a 62% chance of losing 1 stack would give you an EV of over half a stack. It's not a good idea to fold hands with an EV of half a stack, since most hands have an EV of less than 1bb.
      Bracelet Winner

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      • #4
        i agree arty cash is a different monster again but the point i was making was in a multi way all in pot you are a massive underdog something like 4-1 its hard to put your life as massive underdog and you would need to win a monster pot to turn it into +EV for the 3 times you bust where as if its up to a 3 way all in i wouldn't think twice and if they have aces they have aces
        Bracelet Winner


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        • #5
          There are times to fold kings.... it all depends on the individual situation. What are the stack sizes, what type of tourney, what opp's are in the pot, etc.

          The absolute majority of the time it is correct to get it in with KK.. but not always.

          John (JWK24)
          Super-Moderator



          6 Time Bracelet Winner


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Hoenhiem88 View Post
            in a multi way all in pot you are a massive underdog something like 4-1 its hard to put your life as massive underdog
            @Hoenhiem88 We are basically NEVER a 4-1 dog. Say we're in a 4-way pot against a 10% range, 6% range and 3% range, we still have 42% equity... so we expect to lose 58% of the time, but it is a HUGE +EV play as we have nowhere near over 42% of the chips that are in the pot. John (JWK24)
            Super-Moderator



            6 Time Bracelet Winner


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            • #7
              Originally posted by HennieP View Post
              Folding KK can be the right play especially at the start of a tournament.
              @HennieP If we're using correct bankroll management... then folding KK preflop in almost all situations at the start of a tourney is a total disaster. John (JWK24)
              Super-Moderator



              6 Time Bracelet Winner


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              • #8
                Originally posted by JWK24 View Post
                @HennieP If we're using correct bankroll management... then folding KK preflop in almost all situations at the start of a tourney is a total disaster. John (JWK24)
                Yeah, I actually didn't pick up on the pre-flop part. My bad.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JWK24 View Post
                  @Hoenhiem88 We are basically NEVER a 4-1 dog. Say we're in a 4-way pot against a 10% range, 6% range and 3% range, we still have 42% equity... so we expect to lose 58% of the time, but it is a HUGE +EV play as we have nowhere near over 42% of the chips that are in the pot. John (JWK24)
                  This is right, not sure where you're getting 4-1 underdog from... we are only a 4-1 dog vs AA specifically. Vs. their ranges even somewhat tight ranges, we have a lot of equity. 42% in John's post above does mean we'll be out of the tourney over half the time. But it's hugely +EV. There was an article written a long time back in CardPlayer, I think by Matt Matros, that presented an interesting way to think about this. (In his article we have AA on the first hand of the tourney facing multiple all ins somehow). In John's example, we will be out of the tourney 58% of the time. But the other 42% we will have 4x the starting stack. In your next 100 tournaments, count how many of them you reach 4x the starting stack before busting out. Do you think it will be higher than 42? Chances are good it will be lower... maybe a lot lower. Not only that, you get the benefit of that 4x starting stack right now, where being deep matters a lot, not at some later point in the tourney when blinds/antes are higher.
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                  4 Time Bracelet Winner



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                  • #10
                    i was basing it off if you have AA in a 5 way all in pot your only sitting with 30 odd % equity to win, I would never fold kk unless it was in a that situation where everyone was all in and i was covered by the opponents so my tourney life was on the line, if it wasn't all in id be 3 betting quite high with the opens of getting it in heads up or narrowing the field.
                    I see the value completely in getting it in 99% of circumstances maybe i am wrong and should just go for it as if i increase my stack size by 4-5x

                    though in a major event like wsop main event it would suck to be out in the first hour on a hand like that but maybe we need to stop thinking like that
                    Bracelet Winner


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hoenhiem88 View Post
                      but maybe we need to stop thinking like that
                      100% correct. There will be a great instance of this in my blog next week (which will be my Vegas recap). Yes, we'll lose out a bunch, but when we do hold, we're in line for a deep run for big $$.

                      John (JWK24)
                      Super-Moderator



                      6 Time Bracelet Winner


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                      • #12
                        i guess it comes back to bankroll management if busting is going to bother you that much were prob playing too high stakes
                        Bracelet Winner


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hoenhiem88 View Post
                          i was basing it off if you have AA in a 5 way all in pot your only sitting with 30 odd % equity to win, I would never fold kk unless it was in a that situation where everyone was all in and i was covered by the opponents so my tourney life was on the line, if it wasn't all in id be 3 betting quite high with the opens of getting it in heads up or narrowing the field.
                          I see the value completely in getting it in 99% of circumstances maybe i am wrong and should just go for it as if i increase my stack size by 4-5x

                          though in a major event like wsop main event it would suck to be out in the first hour on a hand like that but maybe we need to stop thinking like that
                          I would suggest you should never be out like that with KK in the first hour of the WSOP main event (all in preflop with KK that is). The main event starts 300bb deep. Never stack off KK for 300bb effective preflop imo. (Note: I'm not suggesting you should fold KK, rather I'm suggesting you should stop re-raising well before the point of being all in on 300bb effective stacks)
                          Head Live Trainer
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                          4 Time Bracelet Winner



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                          • #14
                            Thanks everyone, i was clearly wrong in my thinking in places so this has actually been a great learning activity, i dont like getting in early in a tournament anyway i much prefer getting those hands later but can't control when we get them. my medium to short stack game is good but i really need to work on my deep stack and post flop play where i no i still need a lot of work but learning bit more every day bit this has been great thanks guys.
                            Bracelet Winner


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                            • #15
                              i will always all in with kk for sure

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