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Can I shove plz?

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  • Can I shove plz?

    It's Hot $0.55 Turbo 5 mins blind level . I have around 17.33BB

    This is my first hand at a new table I just been thrown to So no reads on anyone basically

    Question is very tough , can I shove over a limper or should I raise (I can't think of folding direct) ?

    PokerStars Hand #116855111816: Tournament #914085398, $0.50+$0.05 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (75/150) - 2014/05/30 3:07:52 IST [2014/05/29 17:37:52 ET]
    Table '914085398 66' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
    Seat 1: one cat army (3005 in chips)
    Seat 2: PoisonNox (3140 in chips)
    Seat 3: milkiway10 (3000 in chips)
    Seat 4: Dobriyua (5310 in chips)
    Seat 5: Franky2013 (9040 in chips)
    Seat 6: PocketDarlin (11401 in chips) is sitting out
    Seat 7: chmielick7 (2874 in chips)
    Seat 8: Arnold1948 (14323 in chips)
    Seat 9: adikumar2010 (2570 in chips)
    one cat army: posts the ante 20
    PoisonNox: posts the ante 20
    milkiway10: posts the ante 20
    Dobriyua: posts the ante 20
    Franky2013: posts the ante 20
    PocketDarlin: posts the ante 20
    chmielick7: posts the ante 20
    Arnold1948: posts the ante 20
    adikumar2010: posts the ante 20
    PoisonNox: posts small blind 75
    milkiway10: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to adikumar2010 [Jc Ad]
    adikumar2010 said, "with ace also"
    Dobriyua: folds
    Franky2013: calls 150
    PocketDarlin: folds
    chmielick7: folds
    Arnold1948: folds
    one cat army: Action Pending
    PoisonNox: Action Pending
    milkiway10: Action Pending
    Franky2013: Action Pending

    STATS :
    Bracelet Winner

  • #2
    I agree that this is a tough decision. I agree that folding is too weak and we should be raising in some form.

    It's tough to know what the limper is doing - some people just habitually limp with all their crap that they don't think is strong enough to raise. Others limp with premiums waiting to trap. Some do both.

    I think AJo is just outside the kind of slowplay range where we'd be comfortably raise(say to 500)/calling any shove, because seeing a flop often isn't going to be that great for us in case someone just calls. So I think we can jam this to utilise some fold equity against low pocket pairs and ensure that none of the stacks can do a stop-and-go play on us.

    I'd be grateful to hear some other opinions on this though.


    • #3
      My preference would be to standard raise. My second choice would be to flat and hope to see the flop in position. My reasoning is that I'd want to raise, but jamming here against a bunch of unknowns, IMO, is too many chips and will just get me value-owned.

      John (JWK24)

      6 Time Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        So jamming is bad but raising 4x with a 17BB stack is fair play and then if he donks to me on flop and I miss I will have 13BB when I fold.
        Last edited by adikumar2010; Sat May 31, 2014, 02:13 AM.
        Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          For me.. if the bet doesn't pot commit me (1/3 my stack goes into the pot).. I'm not shoving, as I can find a better situation if I need to fold. Shoving too many chips just lets the opps play perfect against me.. something that I want to avoid. Been there, done that and learned it the hard way.

          John (JWK24)

          6 Time Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            So you mean spewing off 24% of our stack preflop by raising and then fold 2/3 of the times on the flop is a good plan?

            (We will make pair on flop 1 in 3 times as chewme1 says so 2 out of 3 times we will fold after putting 24% stack in)
            Bracelet Winner


            • #7
              With no reads.. I'd rather worst case give away 4BB.. than to punt my stack 2 in every 3 times.

              At least that way I still have 1 play left, compared to nothing.

              John (JWK24)

              6 Time Bracelet Winner


              • #8
                Interesting discussion!

                Originally posted by adikumar2010 View Post
                So jamming is bad but raising 4x with a 17BB stack is fair play and then if he donks to me on flop and I miss I will have 13BB when I fold.
                I think this is an entirely reasonable line. 13BB is still plenty of chips to work with in the circumstances where we have to give up on the flop or fold to a shove from one of the later stacks.

                However, some percentage of the time everyone will fold and we'll just take down all the dead money. Some percentage of the time we will win with a flop CBet uncontested and sometimes we will be able to double up.

                Originally posted by JWK24 View Post
                Shoving too many chips just lets the opps play perfect against me.. something that I want to avoid.
                I disagree with this to some extent. I assume by playing perfectly, you are referring to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. I doubt that the stacks yet to act to our left are going to call a 17BB shove with 22-77 for example, which means that we are encouraging them to make a mistake as these hands are favourite against us.

                Similarly, if the limper is a fish (which would be my assumption with no reads and this being a $0.55 tourney), I would also assume that he might make some calling mistakes e.g. calling with broadways, A8+, I see these sorts of limp/calls made quite regularly at nano-stakes.

                Another aspect I didn't mention in my original response was the strategy of massive-field tournaments. You have many thousands of people to get through to get any kind of decent return and reach the big money. After reading Elky in "Kill Everyone", I'm much more willing to sacrifice some min cashes in the early stages of these tournaments to try and build a large stack so I've got a better chance of running deeper, especially as this is a turbo and the blinds will gobble us up quickly and we'll have to potentially risk much worse spots if we don't win a big pot.

                If this was a 180-man or some other smaller MTT, I would be much less inclined to shove in a spot like this as we would be well positioned for a deep run as we are, so losing our stack would not be great ICM-wise.

                So I don't know what the right answer is, but these are some factors to consider.


                • #9
                  I am thinking same that what is our 4x raise going to achieve, we basically want (pray) that he folds and we take the pot down preflop. But I don't think he is folding for 3BB more after limping at these stakes.

                  I think JWK's other option is much better like limping behind and calling of shoves from other small stacks.
                  Bracelet Winner



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