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KK facing a min-raise on wet board !!

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  • KK facing a min-raise on wet board !!

    It's SCOOP-32-L $27 Progressive Knockout, 15mins blind level slow structure.

    He is a super loose player & limp calls 100% hands. Calling all types of hand preflop payed me of with K3o on a A K J 9 5 rainbow board and I had KJs.

    You can read auto-notes in the stats image also.

    So how should I proceed now since I got min-raised on this super wet board ?

    PokerStars Hand #116183273933: Tournament #894306923, $12.30+$12.25+$2.45 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (40/80) - 2014/05/15 0:56:10 IST [2014/05/14 15:26:10 ET]
    Table '894306923 1281' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: CasaPoke (6095 in chips)
    Seat 2: adikumar2010 (5070 in chips)
    Seat 3: ljustin case (9270 in chips)
    Seat 4: Patherick (4750 in chips)
    Seat 5: ben1968 (7526 in chips)
    Seat 6: Degterev777 (4275 in chips)
    Seat 7: icemanci (4339 in chips)
    Seat 8: Tfete (4500 in chips)
    Seat 9: skinny985 (9175 in chips)
    icemanci: posts small blind 40
    Tfete: posts big blind 80
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to adikumar2010 [Ks Kh]
    skinny985: folds
    CasaPoke: folds
    adikumar2010: raises 120 to 200
    ljustin case: folds
    Patherick: folds
    ben1968: calls 200
    Degterev777: calls 200
    icemanci: calls 160
    Tfete: folds
    *** FLOP *** [8s Qd 5s]
    icemanci: checks
    adikumar2010: bets 586
    ben1968: raises 586 to 1172
    Degterev777: folds
    icemanci: folds
    adikumar2010: ??

    I think the possible cards he can have to min-raise are Qx, Q8, flush draws with AJ AT TJ (he can have any two spades since his stats matches with fish ), 9Ts (this is very strong draw gutshot with flush draw), set of 88 or 55, AsQx (Pair and flush draw).

    Considering all this in his range, I am not sure if I am ranging him correct. What should be my next step in the hand:
    1. I can fold, people 7/10 times min raise like this with nuts or set or flopped straight, etc.
    2. I can 3-bet, which will make me pot committed as after making a standard 3-bet I will have less then pot size bet left in my stack.
    3. Call, which I am not sure is great play. Coz we are playing guessing game all the way in future streets and possibily check-calling turn and river if flush draw doesn't complete.

    STATS :

    Now putting all his range in my equilab it says, I am not sure if I put his whole range correctly:
    Last edited by adikumar2010; Thu May 15, 2014, 01:39 AM.
    Bracelet Winner

  • #2
    Hi adikumar2010! With KK, I'm going to make a standard opening raise, which for me at this blind level is to 3X or 240. I then get 3 callers behind. I see a 4-way flop with a spade draw and multiple straight draws. I need to make a lead bet here and the key is the sizing of it. With 3 opps, I need to bet 3/4 pot (cannot bet less). With this being the case, I will bet 660. Players that bet less on boards with multiple draws are normally trying to price in their draw.. which is what this bet looks to be doing. I have an overpair to the board, so I want to price out the draws.. not to give them the correct odds to try to outdraw me. I then get min-raised by a very loose opp. Since the lead bet looks like a draw, they could be raising with a much wider range than you're listing. There are plenty of Qx, 8x, 5x, plus all of the draws. Against their entire range with this flop, from pokerstove, KK has 80.322% equity. Even if I only keep Qx, 8x, 5x, XsXs, pairs and straight draws from their range, KK still has 76.154% equity. Being a 3-1 favorite, I'm jamming over their min-raise, as any re-raise will pot commit me. I'm not calling because then the opp gets the correct odds to outdraw me and I'm not folding a hand that will win 3 in every 4 times. The key with this hand is that the flop bet is way too small and the opp should be raising it if they have any type of made hand.. but their raise should have been a 1/2 pot raise, not a min. When I have a made hand (or want to represent a made hand), I have to make standard bets that will price out the opponent's draws. If I bet smaller and the opp stays and hits.. it's my own fault that I lose the hand. Yes, I want to keep the draws in, but ONLY if they play a price where they expect to lose chips to me. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)

    6 Time Bracelet Winner


    • #3
      Yes nice thanks. Unfortunately I did 3-bet jam and he had 55.

      Exactly the same situation has this John:

      There is a tendency that I keep noticing with beginners and recreational players that they 9/10 times min raise you with flopped straight or set, with really the nuts type hand. I don't know if other people do see this happening, but mostly I have seen them min-raise or min-checkraise with super hand coz they are weak players and they just think this is the best way to lure a fish like me to 3-bet or to keep calling there bets.

      If the board is wet and we have overpair, our first instinct always tell he is check-raising or min-raising with weaker holding or draws, so we need to 3-bet jam. But I think this is the best opportunity for the villian to get my whole stack coz they can represent lot of draws by making this idiotic play and in the end they will show up with two pair or set.

      On the flipside if the board is super-dry then they try to slowplay coz if they min-raise the alarm bell will ring in my head that he flopped set or two pair and is trying to get more money in.

      Talking about this I think I myself can integrate this play in my game as opponent with TPTK or Overpair will never put me on set or two pair on a wet board and I will end up getting his whole stack rather then me trying to slow play set on wet board or try to not bloat the pot.

      Hff... I don't know if I will start learning to fold overpairs to the board on the wet flop. Everytime I think they have some draws or weaker hand then me but they are either lucky to flop two pair or set against me on a super-wet board when I am holding overpair or TPTK.

      I don't know John if I am correct in my explanation, but overall as you said I will win money in these spots in long term. But I think in tournaments I see people playing all draws passivelly in general and in cash games they play draws very aggressively. So here is a big difference.

      Reason I can tell you why they play passively in tournament is they keep chasing draws by calling all bets till the river as they don't want to stack off with there flush draw. But suppose if they opt to raise on the flop and I have a strong hand like TPTK or over-pair. They know I will 3-bet jam and they will not be able to chase there draw any more and wil have to fold ther OESD or flush draw. So they all want to presserve there chips in tournaments as they don't want to be risking on a draw by 2-betting or 3-betting there Flush draws and me jamming and pricing them out to chase. So they keep callling until the river and fold if draw doesnt come.

      Now in cash games they don't think they need to preserve the stack, if they bust they can always reload. Also they think in cash games they have more fold equity and other player might be getting out of line more as compared to tournaments. So in cash games they will 2-bet there flush draws or sometimes even 3-bet jam flush draw with pair as they are not scared of losing chips even if I have overpair. They will take the 40-60 or whatever. But in tournies they would not be able to do so coz first thing players usually don't get out of line as they can't risk splasing chips on draws, so if they choose to raise on the flop. They mostly will get resistance unless the hero is C-betting with air.

      So in short people play passive poker in MTTs so that they don't bust in one hand, in cash games they play aggressively as they can reload. I am explaining how the recs thinks. You have played lot of live cash games/MTT and you know the thought process of recs in MTT and Cash games better then me.

      Let's see what you have to think about all this gibberish
      Last edited by adikumar2010; Thu May 15, 2014, 05:06 PM.
      Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        Sorry john if you think I am arguing. It's +EV spot at all times but I think sometimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of a recreational players and try to figure out how he will play his super-strong hands.

        Ofcourse he was Loose passive player that's a big reason for me to not laydown overpair. You will say if villian is 7/7 guy we can let it go 8/10 times to his min raise but with his fish stats we can't let it go. But that's how these loose passive players get the money, they play all hands and when they hit the flop hard, they get no credit and we end up donating our whole stack just looking at his stats on PT4.

        You are more about maths and I am more about the psychological game. But I think poker player has to balance both. If we are playing online we can't put psycological and mental thought process out of the picture & only go by the stats and maths (pot odds, range, etc).

        Usually when we play live it all of a sudden becomes feel, intuition, instinct, gut, read based, tells, playing pattern, psycological war. But when we sit online it's only a stats and maths at work, rest is ignored completely. We can't see as much as we can see and feel live, but we can somewhat maybe put ourselves in the place of a weak player and try to think what he would do if he has a certain hand at that spot. Would he min-raise with flopped straight as he got super excited or would he slow-play.
        Last edited by adikumar2010; Thu May 15, 2014, 05:13 PM.
        Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          There is a difference between cash game play and tourneys.

          In a cash game, a player can reload and also each chip gained is equal to each chip earned.

          In tournaments, a player cannot reload (once you bust, you're out) and chip preservation is at a much higher premium. Each chip gained does not equal every chip lost as the chips lost are worth more in tourney EV.

          The tighter the villain is in this hand.. the MORE likely I am to jam here and the less likely I'd ever even consider folding... the reason for this, is that as the opp gets tighter, then less of this board hits them. If the opp is 7/7, then 5x is not within their range and 88 is the absolute bottom of it. With this being the case, there is only two other hands in the opp's range that can beat me (QQ and AA).. that's it.

          If they have one of those 3 hands... so be it. Load up another game and start playing. It's why I need to have 100 buy-ins in my bankroll. I want my chips in here and cannot worry about the results. It's a huge +EV play to jam and due to this, I want to do so every single time.

          The players that slowplay everything are VERY exploitable. They'll continually let players get +EV draws, then tilt when they hit (when it's their own fault that they lose for giving the opp a +EV draw).

          John (JWK24)

          6 Time Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            Thanks for putting up with my huge arguments and explaining. I know it's not easy as I fire 100 questions. and I know you are a busy person and your time is much valuable. So whatever response I get from you is more then enough as you obviously can't sit and argue with me for 2-3 hours on each and every point I make. But I appreciate whatever time you take out for helping me to improve in poker and analyze the situation better. I think I need to change my thought process first as I am stuck with the style I am comfortable playing which is wrong sometimes. You can blame by brain for it or the way I learnt poker. But overall whatever response I get from you, I am grateful for that.umbup: I know I am not an easy person and can be annoying or argumentative sometimes . But I will try to simplify things first rather then over-thinking and making an easy situation over-complicated just coz my brain is working triple shift (obviously 3x but not in correct
            Last edited by adikumar2010; Thu May 15, 2014, 07:44 PM.
            Bracelet Winner


            • #7
              Just for your attention John so you don't think I am wasting your time for no reason.

              No more evaluation needed for a change. I hope I can put up some good points/suggestions here on PSO forums which other people might find useful. I always like to share my thought process coz it might be profitable for anyone. Like 1 out of 100 points I make you might say "Wow! I never thought about it and maybe I can myself use that in my game."

              No shame in learning from a
              Bracelet Winner


              • #8
                Everyone that's a smart player will create their game from multiple things that they learn from a wide variety of people. The key with playing is to continue to learn and make yourself a better player.

                Every situation that you run into or look at from another player is another chance to learn from it.

                John (JWK24)

                6 Time Bracelet Winner


                • #9
                  Im one of the people that like your posts, adikumar and others's posts too, bcos i dont ussually put them up myself. umbup: And thanks for pokerstar teams too.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Superguiman View Post
                    Im one of the people that like your posts, adikumar and others's posts too, bcos i dont ussually put them up myself. umbup: And thanks for pokerstar teams too.
                    Thanks man even I didn't used to post any hand on PSO forums for initial 3 years (I am an old member) as I thought it will do no good for my game, but from last 2 month I realized that it's the best way to learn poker for free and I am making maximum use of it. Thanks to Dave, JWK, spand, Chewme1, CannonLEe, xflixx for helping.
                    Last edited by adikumar2010; Tue May 20, 2014, 08:21 PM.
                    Bracelet Winner



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