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What mistakes I made in this hand?

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  • What mistakes I made in this hand?

    John can you help me figure out all the mistakes I made in this hand. It's a PSO SCOOP $3.30, 5 tickets Gtd freebuy and I am far from ITM. I am not being result oriented but the table was very active for once I thought one of the villian has a two pair or fullhouse who is now slow-playing. On turn I had to call like 5.5:1 and I can make a better fullhouse on river. If one of them has trips or straight. Even then I had very poor odds to call with KK on turn as I have around 10% equity at best. But I know I played it wrong from the flop itself. My first reason to flat call on the flop is to pot-control incase one of them have a full house or trip like A4, 45, 55 atleast I can not shove right there 3 way and see one of them with a boat. My second reason is if the flop donker 'Ola1492' has some top pair, over pair to board like A5, 33, 66, 77, 88, 99 and he is trying to protect them by donking then I don't want him to fold it to my flop raise. On turn when 'Ola1492' bet very small I knew he is scared and has maybe 5x, 22, 33. That he no longer thinks is ahead but want to throw blocker bets to reach the showdown with his pair. On the other hand 'geralvf', can already have 55, 45, A4. That is is slow playing on the flop or he could have OESD with 67 and on turn he made 44 & 66. So he think its good enough to move all-in as he has two pair and also straight draw on river. * But I never put him on gutshot there. That's my thought process. You can say I was little scared on the flop but at the same time if I am ahead I don't want other two player's to not chase there draw if I shove on flop over there bet/raise. STATS :
    Last edited by adikumar2010; Sat May 03, 2014, 04:42 AM.
    Bracelet Winner

  • #2
    Hi adikumar2010! With KK, I'm going to make a standard opening raise, which for me at this blind level is to 2.5BB+1BB for each limper (1500). I don't lower it to 2.2X until 1k/2k blinds, as I don't want to give especially the blinds the correct odds to be in the hand against me. Also, KK plays much better against only one opp, so I don't want to be involved in a family pot. Another reason not to min-raise here is that by making a standard raise, I price out the small pairs as they won't have the odds needed to try to outdraw me (of course if they do see the flop with these, they will be expecting to lose chips to me on average, which I'll happily accept). I see a 4-way flop with a pair on it and the first opp makes an abnormally small bet (less than 1/2 pot). Bets postflop need to be sized based on the size of the pot, number of opps and board texture. With the 2nd opp folding, I'm now up against 2 opps. A standard bet against 2 opps is 2/3 pot, so since the first bettor did not bet this much, I need to raise by this amount. With this raise size being to 7466, since this bet pot-commits me, I need to shove the flop. It's better to win the pot on the flop than to give the opp the correct odds to outdraw me and to then lose a large pot later in the hand. I want to keep the opps in the hand, but ONLY when they call a bet where they expect to LOSE chips to me on average. If I give them the correct odds to stay, then they will win chips from me on average, each and every time.. regardless of what my cards are. Tournament strategy is just as much about chip preservation as it is about chip accumulation, especially once the blinds start to be sizable. The opp that donks the flop, when they make an abnormally small bet, this is normally from someone trying to intentionally bet small in order to try to price in a draw. If the opp had a pair, then they should be making a standard bet that would price out the draws, as they most likely would have the best hand. If I had shoved the flop, if the opp wants to call on a gutter draw (16% equity), they are paying 34.1% pot odds to do so... so I expect to gain 18.1% from them every time that the call. Yes, they'll get lucky and win 16% of the time, but I will gain chips on average. Also, if I want to play pot control later in a hand, it's better to raise larger preflop and to have less opps in the pot. This way, I can bet a lower % of the pot on each street that I want to value bet. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)

    6 Time Bracelet Winner


    • #3
      My only real though is that over-pair vs 2 opponent plays better with passive opponents.
      For those willing to feed into the pot, I am not in love with my KK as much as I was preflop.

      Your plan on the turn was to check/call to the river by the looks of it (otherwise if your hand was strong, why not raise the turn based on the weak bet by the EP), however your opponent yet to act shoves and you call.

      This doesn't make sense. Sadly, calling the turn bet shows weakness. Your opponent says "my hand is ok to get to the river, but i want to throw a protection bet out there to stop someone pricing me out" and your response is ... "yeah, im happy to see the river cheap as well"

      In this spot, regardless of cards I might raise you both from the button since neither of you is willing to fight for this pot and I could get folds from you both. With 1 opponent that works quite a lot, with two its a lot more risky but regardless of if i do it or not, im thinking about it which means you look very weak.

      You should have stuck with your original line of thinking, you felt KK wasn't strong enough to raise, so why call a raise?

      KK is tough from UTG, you want to play it preflop for all your chips but when people just flat it, its multi-way and AA/KK can burn multi-way


      • #4
        No offence to John or baud2death. I think this looks bit result oriented reply, what if villian had 33 77 88 99 TT A5. I think KK beat many hands even on the turn, if I will play all overpair and stong hands straight forward on the flop, like raising with the best hand, then how will I mix up my game-play. Raising with best hand on the flop is a leak and will make my cards face-up to the oppenent clearly and they can laydown even mediocre and top pair weak kicker hands against me on flop when they face resistance from me.

        Opponent will know that I always raise with my top pair or AA, KK on flop to protect my hand.

        Nothing wrong with following the standard line and playing straight forward ABC poker. (Standard line is standard for a reason and diverging from standard line might increase variance but will sometimes pay you more by being deceptive)

        Also, I think if I don't take risk I will not be able to extract value from worst hand on later street. We can't always think that they will improve all the time.

        Like when I flat called donk bet on the flop I can have 66-99, AK, etc in my range. I mean who will put me on AA, KK is this situation if turn is a blank and I can 2-bet them all-in. They will most likely put me on a draw which I picked-up coz of turn card and will call with there one pair 66-TT or top pair like A5, 5x in this case.

        Looking at the feedback I got, Mixing up the game element is either over-rated or is invalid for online poker. Coz no one seems to say that there is some good merits to playing a hand in an awkward or unusal style.

        Probably you will say that online poker players are weak to not pick up on these kind of stuff, so mixing up your play is not required in micro stakes or freeroll.

        I am not saying I made a good play by being deceptive with my line with KK. I made mistake that's why I put the hand here for review. I always agree 100% with the reply I get after hand evaluation but this time I'm not satisfied completely with the analysis (no offence John). Maybe I am thinking in a different direction or unsual way.

        John, dave what are your views about the kind of thought process I am going through?

        PS: My thought process can be completely wrong, but as you say that even bad player do think when they are playing a hand even if its in absurd manner. You can explain me better what change I need to make in thinking process.
        Last edited by adikumar2010; Sun May 04, 2014, 04:59 PM.
        Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          Hi adikumar2010!

          The raise is not about what cards I'm holding nor about the results. It's due to my stack size and the bet that was made on the flop. What I want to do when playing hands is to make the best decision that I can for a given situation.

          If I have a made hand (or want to represent one when I don't), I need to make standard bets that give the opps a -EV play to call. By doing so, it's what allows me to gain chips on average from them. When I give the opps the correct odds, I will lose chips on average, each and every time.

          It sounds like what you're thinking about is what I'd put under 'Fancy Play Syndrome'.... and is something that I want to avoid, whether it's online or live. Players that do this, continually give the opps the right odds in hands and due to this, WILL lose on average every time that they make abnormal plays.

          What I do to mix things up is to change up my range.. not the bets that I'm making, and the one that I need to avoid is betting too small, where I expect to lose chips on average to the opp.

          John (JWK24)

          6 Time Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            Thanks John, you are right I have that Fancy Play Syndrome Disorder.

            I don't need to overthink.
            Bracelet Winner



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