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how bad was this play.

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  • how bad was this play.

    Was thinking the villain is going with anything and was happy to run with 2 live cards....is that just crazy or what? Grade b
    I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

    13 Time Bracelet Winner



  • #2
    Hi grade b! With T3o, I get a limp and then a shove in front of me. I need to call 1550 into a pot that will be 4000 (38.8%). Now, I need to go to pokerstove to see if I have this much equity. The question here is.. is this going to be a HU pot or a 3-way pot. If it's a HU pot: If the opp is truly playing ATC (a stretch since they have 8.5BB), then T3o from pokerstove has 42.6%, which would make it a call. However, based on the opp's stack and position, they should be shoving around 32% of hands, which gives T3o only 30% equity.. making it a fold since the hand equity is less than the pot equity. If it's a 3-way pot: we'll do this one best case (loose 3rd player). Using 32% for the shover, T3o only has 19% equity, so it's a clear fold. If the shover is playing 100% of hands, T3o only has 19.8% equity.. which is another clear fold. With the real possibility of being in a 3-way pot (easy folds) and even if a HU pot where only ATC is a call... I'm folding here and looking for a spot where I'm ahead... not one where the BEST case is that I lose 57.4% of the time. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)
    Super-Moderator



    6 Time Bracelet Winner


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    • #3
      ty JWK,
      I was somewhat swayed by the fact this was a hyper turbo....which is a shame as had i stop to think the villain was not thinking this way.

      I would say this is an area I need to work on ....but that is plainly obvious I guess.

      Grade b
      I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

      13 Time Bracelet Winner


      Comment


      • #4
        Are you trolling?

        Comment


        • #5
          Are you planning to make this move in the micromillions by any chance?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Grade b View Post
            ty JWK,
            I was somewhat swayed by the fact this was a hyper turbo....which is a shame as had i stop to think the villain was not thinking this way.

            I would say this is an area I need to work on ....but that is plainly obvious I guess.

            Grade b
            yo,

            As you know my poker rule #1.......that being said....hiccup

            I think you played it correct, having 16k.....with a limper going in, then a small stack shoved, calling it hoping that the limper would fold was a good call, with atc, in this case even if l had 27o l would have done the same.....you have to gamble at times, and this was a small one, you cannot win always playing by the book.

            Cheers
            Poker Rule #1....Never listen to me...hiccup

            7 Time Bracelet Winner


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by birdayy View Post
              Are you trolling?

              No this hand has had me umming and erring for about 4 days now.

              Grade b
              I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

              13 Time Bracelet Winner


              Comment


              • #8
                Pot odds are 2450 to 1550. That's a lot less than the 2:1 required to make a call with any two. Added to that is you're not even closing the action. The limper might have a hand, or feel like gambling himself.
                T3o is a real trash hand that I rarely even play HU (when I'm playing over 80% of hands). This is a snap fold for me in this spot.
                My calling range (or I should say "reshoving", because I want to get rid of the limper) here is something like the top 20%. The worst hands I'm re-jamming are QJo and 87s. Anything much below those is barely more than flipping against ATC.
                Bracelet Winner

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
                  Pot odds are 2450 to 1550. That's a lot less than the 2:1 required to make a call with any two. Added to that is you're not even closing the action. The limper might have a hand, or feel like gambling himself.
                  T3o is a real trash hand that I rarely even play HU (when I'm playing over 80% of hands). This is a snap fold for me in this spot.
                  My calling range (or I should say "reshoving", because I want to get rid of the limper) here is something like the top 20%. The worst hands I'm re-jamming are QJo and 87s. Anything much below those is barely more than flipping against ATC.

                  Your right Arty........this way of thinking is by the book.......but the game does not play only by the book.

                  Cheers man
                  Poker Rule #1....Never listen to me...hiccup

                  7 Time Bracelet Winner


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I am going to be slightly contradictory from the other posters here when I say: this WAS a bad play, but it wasn't AS bad as most are making it out to be. It's definitely bad, but it isn't even close to the worst. Let me explain my thoughts:

                    In Harrington on Holdem vol. 2, Dan Harrington mentions that he has a certain policy where he will call a shove with any 2 cards under certain conditions, which are as follows:

                    1. It is the final table of an MTT, the money has burst, and there are big pay jumps.
                    2. You are in the big blind.
                    3. The shover has 15bb or less.
                    4. Your stack is at least 10 times as big as the shover's.
                    5. No one else is in the pot.

                    He says that if these cases are all true, he will call with any 2 cards to try to eliminate the shover, increasing the pay jumps and giving himself a better chance at winning - if he loses, he loses less than 10% of his stack and still has a good chance.

                    That being said, your hand here fit with conditions 2, 3, and ALMOST 4. But there was no indication that this was a final table, so even if you were in the money (possible), the pay jumps aren't huge yet. Not only that, but a stack just as big as yours was already in the pot.

                    So with those last two points in mind, this was a clear fold. It was a bad play. But there IS some logic behind doing something like this in specific circumstances. This just wasn't one of them.

                    PS: This is also NEVER a call in a cash game, which play much differently.
                    Bracelet Winner

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                    • #11
                      Thank you every one for the input, I shall add it to the list of things I will be working on in my 2014 goals.

                      Grade b
                      I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

                      13 Time Bracelet Winner


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Didn't meant to be rude Grade, just thought this is the most obvious fold ever.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by birdayy View Post
                          Didn't meant to be rude Grade, just thought this is the most obvious fold ever.

                          I didn't take it to be rude. I misplayed the hand I guess my question was eacatly how bad the play was yes did not have odds but that said given the range I was thinking ie top 30% it was not that far out (it is out and is a part of the game i need to work on.

                          It threw me at the time and i was making some bad in game adjustments after it, Normally I would shake it off yep played it bad got lucky but just needed to work it through..

                          How would you feel if it was T8 o or T8 s ??? is it a call then?

                          Grade b
                          I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

                          13 Time Bracelet Winner


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            T8o only has 34.6% equity HU.. so it's a fold. T8s is a marginal fold HU

                            Both, I'd snap fold since it could be a 3-way pot.

                            John (JWK24)
                            Super-Moderator



                            6 Time Bracelet Winner


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That's the main point about this hand.

                              We are 3 way.

                              If it was a SB shove, then we could construct a range we could call with, because there is only one player to worry about.

                              In fact, this situation (HU) has already been looked at via nash charts for 10bb: http://www.holdemresources.net/h/poker-theory/hune.html

                              It's not optimal because every opponent is different but it's a good place to start.

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