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Help Please!

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  • Help Please!

    This is one of those hands I always get stuck on.
    Should I fold this preflop with my stack size from this position?

    I think I should have bet 2k on the flop but what if he still calls I already have alot of my chips in the pot...
    What do I do on turn here do I just give up?

    I dont have many hands on any of the players at the table maybe 17 and less but I dont know if that makes a big difference.

    This is just one of those spots I get stuck on because he could be calling me with a worse king or paired the board with some kind of acex type hand maybe even flopped a set.

    I think I could have checked back turn and see if he donk bets river. But then again I cant know for sure he has the flush.

    It really felt like he was calling with the flush draw also but Im never really sure.

    Can someone please give me some advice for this type of situation?
    Last edited by pokerstar671; Sun Oct 13, 2013, 12:23 AM.
    2 Time Bracelet Winner

  • #2
    This is one of those cases where,due to the depth of money of the 4 stacks involved and how bloated the pot became pre-flop in relation to that depth of money (or LACK of depth to be more precise),you actually couldn't do anything here to give the villain incorrect odds to call.

    With the nut flush possibility against our hand the villain has roughly 45% hand equity. Even if we raise 2/3's of the pot (which 4-way is the LEAST I would be raising here...) we only put them on 28.6% pot equity to make a call here...(3600,we raise 2400...2/3's the pot...they 3600+2400+2400=8400...2400/8400=28.57%...). So it would actually be hugely -EV for them to fold.

    Even if we were to SHOVE the flop (which would be what I would do if I were to bet here,again,the depth of the stacks against the bloated nature of the pot pretty much demands it...) we're making the equation this: 3600+6750+6750 (we cap at 6750 against their stack due to having them covered...)=17,100...6750/17,100=39.47%.

    So we narrowed it EV wise but they would still be correct to call.

    You can actually dial them back to having the worst combination of 2 hearts here...7h2h (as it also leaves no straight outs for them whereas a mix of 2h,4h,5h and 6h in any combo would...) and they still wouldn't be buried EV wise calling a shove from us (36.57% hand equity against 39.74% pot equity) and any other bets would give them +EV on the call. Even potting it for 3600,were we to do something that whacky,they would be +EV calling with 7h2h,as their pot equity would be 33.33%.

    Just one of those spots where they're never wrong to make this call poker...

    Where I think you erred was the shove on the Turn. IF they haven't already connected for the flush then we have plenty of showdown value on the River (should it blank) against their likely hands and the board is dry enough against any non-flush hands or draws that I would probably prefer to let them peel that free card than I would be to further bloat this pot now that I'm dead to any made flush.
    Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sun Oct 13, 2013, 12:58 AM.


    • #3
      Wow thats a good detailed explanation thank you very much.

      So basicly then I just check back on turn.

      But on the river do I fold if they donk bet?
      2 Time Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        Absent reads and prior knowledge on the villain...meh,if the river is a blank I possibly call,if it connects for a 4th heart insta-fold. It's never going to be a call I like a lot because if they lead out the river then I can fully see they could be disappointed that we didn't barrel the turn and are now trying to take the lead in getting some value for their flush. Really be one of those crying call spots if I made it I think,so...yeah,I could find the fold button. SOOOO read dependent here and would really not like seeing a donk bet on the river.

        Reason I prefer checking the Turn here is that the way they played the hand here says to me (again,absent reads) either a flush draw and they know we c-bet the flop so they're expecting us to barrel the which case the check is the best play by them,they can then smooth call or put us all-in depending on how much we bet...OR they have hit some other piece of this board,most likely a K and most likely a weaker K than we have (would expect any AK hands to have been raising pre-flop and certainly raising our c-bet on the flop,also hand like K8 or K3 or sets...would raise our c-bet as the line doesn't make sense for AK,sets or 2 pair hands).

        So it's a case of either we're dead or we're in very good shape to be ahead at showdown. Shoving the turn we're mostly only getting called by hands that beat us.
        Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sun Oct 13, 2013, 01:15 AM.


        • #5
          ty moxie
          2 Time Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            Hi pokerstar671! With KQ from middle position, when it folds to me, if I'm going to open, I'll make a standard opening raise to 1k (2.5BB+1BB for each limper). In most cases here, due to the stack size of the BB, I'll actually muck KQ here preflop. If I raise and get shoved on by the BB, I'd be forced to play for their stack and while I don't mind shoving with KQ, it's not a strong enough to call a raise with, so I don't want to be playing for a stack with it. If I raise and get shoved on, the opp will also be getting the right odds to be in the pot with me. Depending on the opps, I'll muck this about 90% of the time and raise to 1k about 10% of the time. I flop top pair/2nd kicker. When it checks to me, I'm going to make a standard value bet. Bets postflop need to be made based on the size of the pot, number of opps and board texture. With 3 opps, a standard bet is 3/4 pot, so I will bet 2700. If I knew that only one opp will call, I could bet 1800 and price the opp out to the turn, but I would need to bet another 1/2 pot on the turn and if I don't have that many chips, I can only price them out on the flop. However, I don't know that I will only get one opp, so I need to bet more... BUT... betting 2700 creates another problem. It makes me pot-committed. Therefore, I need to and will SHOVE the flop. If I play the hand, I'm standard raising, then shoving the flop... but the best choice.. is to muck it preflop due to the stack sizes (especially the BB that with all of the chips in the pot when it gets to them.. should have just shoved), as KQ does not play well in multi-way pots, nor is it strong enough to call a shove with. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)

            6 Time Bracelet Winner


            • #7
              Yes it helps very much thank you JWK
              2 Time Bracelet Winner



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