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A question about my pre-flop play please!

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  • A question about my pre-flop play please!

    okay, we ingnore the end result, but was my 5x raise good or bad? I didnt want to do less, as likely callers would probably have either of the two overcards, or a pocket pair, and so i aimed it at 5x.
    Anything to help my game, pleeease!!! Many thanks

    villian was on the table only for 15 hands... flops seen 20%, VPIP 40%, Raised 33%, Blind Steal attempts 66%...

    PokerStars Hand #103941619488: Tournament #784317608, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2013/09/10 20:19:26 WET [2013/09/10 15:19:26 ET]
    Table '784317608 12' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: WeaselBasher (3555 in chips)
    Seat 2: Daniov (1650 in chips)
    Seat 3: Thilulu73 (5568 in chips) is sitting out
    Seat 4: Marshall252 (5870 in chips)
    Seat 5: ziimulis (7368 in chips)
    Seat 6: TRBnHe (7085 in chips)
    Seat 7: [v.2]Nick (3980 in chips)
    Seat 8: Elixirhappy (2935 in chips)
    Seat 9: ivv1 (2170 in chips)
    Elixirhappy: posts small blind 100
    ivv1: posts big blind 200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to WeaselBasher [Qd Qs]
    Thilulu73 has returned
    WeaselBasher: raises 800 to 1000
    Daniov: folds
    Thilulu73: folds
    Marshall252: folds
    ziimulis: folds
    TRBnHe: raises 1800 to 2800
    [v.2]Nick: folds
    Elixirhappy: folds
    ivv1: folds
    WeaselBasher: raises 755 to 3555 and is all-in
    TRBnHe: calls 755
    *** FLOP *** [9s Td 6h]
    *** TURN *** [9s Td 6h] [Ah]
    *** RIVER *** [9s Td 6h Ah] [8h]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    WeaselBasher: shows [Qd Qs] (a pair of Queens)
    TRBnHe: shows [Kd Kc] (a pair of Kings)
    TRBnHe collected 7410 from pot
    WeaselBasher finished the tournament in 86th place
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 7410 | Rake 0
    Board [9s Td 6h Ah 8h]
    Seat 1: WeaselBasher showed [Qd Qs] and lost with a pair of Queens
    Seat 2: Daniov folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: Thilulu73 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: Marshall252 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: ziimulis folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: TRBnHe showed [Kd Kc] and won (7410) with a pair of Kings
    Seat 7: [v.2]Nick (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: Elixirhappy (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 9: ivv1 (big blind) folded before Flop
    Last edited by WeaselBasher; Tue Sep 10, 2013, 11:06 PM.

  • #2
    For me this would usually be a shove.

    If I thought there were loose aggressive players who would shove over me light I might make a standard raise - but often this looks stronger from early position than a shove.

    Either way I'm trying to get all-in preflop with QQ and 17BBs.

    The 5 x open raise is not something I would do here.

    4 Time Bracelet Winner


    • #3
      thanks Ed...umbup:


      • #4
        I agree with Ed here with 17 bb I'm trying to get it all in, if i had 30 bb's I would make my standard raise of 2.2 bb's (at this stage of a Tournament.

        do you always raise 5x or just with good hands - could be a tell that player can pick up on.

        Grade b
        I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

        13 Time Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          I want to maximise potential winnings with a strong hand like QQ, I don't want to raise 5x if that is going to encourage hands I want action from like 66 and JT to fold. If you know you will get action from worse with 5x then no problem but typically it screams strong-ish hands and allow villains to play more correctly. I prefer consistency like Grade B suggests. I probably make it a bit bigger with any hand I open UTG as don't want to invite loads of callers min-raising, but would be no more than 2.5bb for me.


          • #6
            Ok, thats great input guys....thanksumbup:


            • #7
              I do sometimes raise 4x, 5x with lesser hands, just to mix it.


              • #8
                Originally posted by WeaselBasher View Post
                I do sometimes raise 4x, 5x with lesser hands, just to mix it.

                Problem with a Big raise preflop is if you get called They have a good hand 98% of the time and even if they dont, the pot is huge on the flop, committing stacks which is why if you are going to raise that big an all is better. Make the player decide before they see what the flop is....

                Grade b
                I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

                13 Time Bracelet Winner


                • #9
                  Originally posted by WeaselBasher View Post
                  I do sometimes raise 4x, 5x with lesser hands, just to mix it.

                  At these blind levels with a 17BB stack I would be looking to do my standard raise...2 or 2. depending on position,maybe up to 2.5 from UTG or UTG+1 (since I have more players to get through and will be raising a much narrower and stronger range from EP). This gives me a chance to take it down pre,get weaker pairs involved (and ticketed for a one-way trip to "value town" on favorable flop),be able to shove or fold depending on action behind me pre-flop (and,of course,depending on WHO is providing that action) and I'm not so committed that I can't re-evaluate on the flop.

                  When you raise as large as you did you're pretty much committing yourself to "Sydney or the bush" on this hand. At 17BB we're not quite at the point where we need to do that,and if you feel that you are then you may as well just open shove (max your equity against players that may be inclined to call with lesser pairs and Ax hands...).

                  You say here that you sometimes bump up your raises with lesser (marginal?) hands to disguise your large rasing with premiums some. Instead of that I think you'll find it more profitable to dial down the size with the premiums to a more manageable level and make all your raises that size (exceptions made for position only).

                  Can always adjust to push/fold poker as necessary if we get bled down to 10-12 bigs and less,no need to rope ourselves into playing for stacks with our opening raise and we still have 17 bigs.


                  • #10
                    Hi WeaselBasher! The key here is standard raises. With QQ (or any other hand that I'm going to open), I'm going to use my standard 2.5BB+1BB for each limper here. By keeping ALL of my raises standard, I use the same raise with AA, QQ, 33, AK, JTs or a bluff... by making them standard, the opps are continually guessing as to the cards that I'm playing. Players that bet more with better hands and less with marginal ones are basically turning them face-up to their opponents. By raising to 500 with any hand that I'm going to play, if I do so, you don't know whether I've got AA or 27o. Another reason for standard raising here is that even though I'm going to play the hand, I'm not pot-committed. This may get the opp to play back at me lighter... in which case, I'll either call a shove of theirs or if they raise less, I'll 3-bet shove. The only way I'd consider folding is with a preflop raise to 500 and a flop that contains both an A and K. Making abnormally large raises, as stated by some of the others, will normally lead to one thing.. getting value owned. This means that all worse hands will fold and only hands that beat me will call. This is something that I do not want to do. I'm one that years ago, used to do what you are.. trying to mix it up with my bet sizes. Once I started making them standard, I have had much more success at the tables, as the opps are not going to be able to put me on a hand anywhere near as easily and I do not risk giving off a bet tell as to the strength of my hand. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)

                    6 Time Bracelet Winner


                    • #11
                      The only reason I ever have for making abnormally large raises is for pure value ie. I think I will get called by a loose player who won't catch on to what I am doing. Raising bigger pre as a bluff with weaker holdings doesn't make a lot of sense to me. At the micros you will get loose calls and when you whiff the flop then what do you do next?

                      Just keep them standard as others have said.


                      • #12
                        Well I got my money's worth out of my post, didn't I?

                        Seriously, it is all great feedback, including you JWK

                        Many thanks!



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