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How to play when the flop is TOO good

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  • How to play when the flop is TOO good

    I got this hand about 20 minutes into a $1.50 Fifty50 STT. I was sort of stunned for a moment, then had no idea how to play my hand. All suggestions welcome.
    Bracelet Winner



  • #2
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    • #3
      Check: gives them an opportunity to catch something. good for a fit or fold opponent. If they have a middle pair bet for you.

      Small bet, ~1.3 pot: Maybe seen as weakness at this level so is good against a loose aggro. May entice them to see another card so you get some value. Gives them a chance to make a mistake.

      3/4 pot + bet: Runs off any one except a nice pair.


      Since fit or fold is a good Fifty50 strategy, I'd check.
      Last edited by TrumpinJoe; Sat Jul 13, 2013, 05:44 AM.

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      • #4
        Have to agree with TrumpinJoe that a check here is the way to go followed by bet on the turn.

        Grade b
        I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

        13 Time Bracelet Winner


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        • #5
          I'm checking here as well. We can hope they have a pair or even a strong K and think that they're ahead here. Heck some players may even try to rep that THEY have the 4th ace.

          If they check the flop back then I'm betting small on the turn and hope that they've improved and/or perceive weakness on our part.

          Would be curious to know what happened here,hope you got a late "birthday present".

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          • #6
            I'd actually bet this flop. The oppopnent would likely expect a bet and if he has a PP may think he is good. If he does call the flop bet then i might slow down and try to induce him to bet his hands.

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            • #7
              If he has a PP its much wiser to let him think you dont have squat just KJ or something and let him bet out,
              If there is no bet on the flop then you still have the oppurtunity to bet the turn dont scare your opponent off with a hand thats likely to win 99.9999999% of the time.

              nice flop joy
              don't beg for things do it yourself or else you won't get anything

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              • #8
                yes to me you have to check here to let them catch up however you will not be able to get stacks in easily if you check and in a fifty/50 when 5 are left chips are worth money so I would tend to bet quite big on the turn and river

                on reflection its tricky as you are the preflop aggresser so a continuation bet on this board is expected so emotivekiwi plan is good also

                I think the villains fold to c bet stat /read here would be useful

                im beginning well just starting to sound like i know what im talking about ...due to PSO i be very interested what the hand evaluator has to say and sorry i didnt mean to sit on the fence and hedge my bets

                if hes ac alling station for example im always betting here all 3 streets

                against a post flop maniac LAg type you could check to induce and if he checks th eflop you need to build the pot fo rvalue onthe turn and river if he has nothign tocall with i doubt he wil call on any street anyways soyou just have to be happy with a smallish pot as youhave th eboard crushed obv

                verusus a tight passive rock /nit a check would be best here as you dont want him to escape cheaply

                so its like dave says it depends ....its very read dependent

                ps thanks for posting as it made me think and think away from the tables as "in game" i doubt i would have followed my own advice but in the future i hope to

                rolo

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                • #9
                  This is a Fifty50 and two away from payoff. Joy's 4th stack and slightly behind 3rd. This is a situation to maximize value. A std 2.5 bb bet from the cutoff can easily check here without being suspicious, imo, unless she's against players who know that she almost always c-bets when heads-up. There should be a lot more than pairs in this villains range calling a raise from a stealing positions. Two Broadway cards, middle suited one-gappers and off-suit connectors are also likely. A bet gives them the opportunity to make the right play and fold most of their range. Checking offers more opportunities for them to make a mistake.

                  In other situations the best ways to maximize value may well be different.

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                  • #10
                    Nice hand Joy.

                    I've been thinking a ton of different things about this hand.

                    My initial gut is to c-bet small. I don't think people will give you credit for an Ace much. And will continue or even reraise with a pair themselves or a Kx hand.

                    Some of the other things I've been thinking about was Trumpin Joe's statement and my initial thoughts too on maximising value. Being a Fifty50 there's that increased equity to stick around and less focus on winning all the chips. Here we're obviously not worried about being busted. But still the first chips we win in this pot are more important that getting all the chips.

                    For example if we check two streets and finally get 300 more chips out of the opponent on the river when they have a weak hand, is more important overall than ensuring we get two bets in for value vs a weak hand. The proviso being our opponent is always giving us chips when they are strong so doesn't matter what we do.

                    Now I'm also thinking about the villains calling range. Normally we're thinking some pairs and some Ax and a few broadways. Well they've actually got no Ax in their calling range now, because they are no Aces left. So that means their calling range now just becomes pairs and a few broadways. I think this means they actually have a pretty strong hand on this flop.

                    Given those two points. In a Fifty50 I'm inclined to change my mind and check this flop and possible even check a turn.

                    There really is a lot of aspects to this hand. For the most profitable line we need a read on our opponents tendencies and calling range.

                    Andy


                    Quad Bracelet Winner

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                    • #11
                      Actually, one last comment.

                      One problem with checking to allow your opponent to hit is there are actually still scare cards to roll off.

                      If you think about some pocket pair hands. How happy would they be to see a K or Q roll off on the turn. It's actually possible that a turn card could kill our action.

                      So Vs a tight player that wouldn't bet a small fullhouse it may be better to cbet small on the flop. I doubt even a tight player would lay down a fullhouse to one bet.

                      And you never want to get yourself into a situation with two people slow playing each other


                      Quad Bracelet Winner

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ahar010 View Post
                        Actually, one last comment.

                        One problem with checking to allow your opponent to hit is there are actually still scare cards to roll off.

                        If you think about some pocket pair hands. How happy would they be to see a K or Q roll off on the turn. It's actually possible that a turn card could kill our action.

                        So Vs a tight player that wouldn't bet a small fullhouse it may be better to cbet small on the flop. I doubt even a tight player would lay down a fullhouse to one bet.

                        And you never want to get yourself into a situation with two people slow playing each other
                        Very good point on slow play Andy.

                        If they have a non-broadway pair, a broadway card will hit 1/3 of the time. If they hold 2 broadways, they only pair up 12%. With that range they hold a pair 45% of the time. Since a scare cards hit so often the villain's proper play against a check is to bet so you deny the hero a free card and represent a pair when you don't have it. So here we have the unusual situation where encouraging your opponent to do the right thing is the best line of play, imo.

                        So in this case is a check-raise; a check call then bet the turn; or a check - check the best line?

                        We must consider if this playing too many levels above this opponent with this line? In other words, can we count on this villain to do the right thing and bet? If we can't, then we should bet the flop to give them the chance to make a mistake.

                        This is what makes poker such a fascinating game.

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                        • #13
                          For me, it's bet-bet-shove, and it's not even close.
                          Villains never put you on quads if you come out betting, and on the few times I've flopped quads, I've stacked a full house every single time.
                          Slowplaying is so 1992.

                          EDIT: The fact that is a fifty50 might give me pause for thought, but I think even in that format, betting makes most sense.

                          Play your quads fast, like Benny Spindler.
                          Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Sat Jul 13, 2013, 07:42 PM.
                          Bracelet Winner

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
                            For me, it's bet-bet-shove, and it's not even close.
                            Villains never put you on quads if you come out betting, and on the few times I've flopped quads, I've stacked a full house every single time.
                            Slowplaying is so 1992.

                            EDIT: The fact that is a fifty50 might give me pause for thought, but I think even in that format, betting makes most sense.

                            Play your quads fast, like Benny Spindler.
                            Hello, there's a huge difference between this to hands Hero is OOP , Gomez has second possible nuts, Spindler has clear meaning that Gomez has a made hand, there's no need to slow play .
                            Hero is OOP, Villain doesn't have JJ+ (he would 3bet pre flop), there are JJ+ in hero's hand range, I think it's very difficult to get value from hero's hand here.I would check flop in a hope that villain will hit his K or Q OTT .

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
                              Slowplaying is so 1992.

                              EDIT: The fact that is a fifty50 might give me pause for thought, but I think even in that format, betting makes most sense.
                              That makes sense if our villain will check back to often. The only way to know for sure is to compare several plausible scenarios for EV. Not an exercise I am up to at the moment, too much thinking for a Saturday.

                              Good Decisions everyone!

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