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45 man 25 cent first hand faceing 3 all ins

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  • 45 man 25 cent first hand faceing 3 all ins

    first hand and no reads, discuss thanks in advance Grade b
    I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

    13 Time Bracelet Winner



  • #2
    200 is too big a raise here B,and I'm thinking part of the reason you followed along in the shove parade is because you felt somewhat committed.

    We should be raising 3x + 1x for each limper here,120. That makes it a little more palatable of a fold here,which IMO is the correct play.

    There are sooooo many bad players in these that I'm NEVER risking a 75BB stack on JJ in a 4 way pot. QQ either for that matter,and you can throw AK,suited or no,in the mix. Not gonna do it.

    AA or KK however,I'm shipping all day in this spot. So many Ax ragheads in these that a KK ship can easily be against 2,maybe even 3,Ax hands.

    But JJ is a fold here IMO. And the 200 chip bet was too large,which consequently makes the fold harder,which may have led to a sketchy,at best,decision to ship JJ in this spot.

    Win or lose B I think this is a way -EV play,especially in a .25 45 man. You MAY very well be against 3 worse hands here,but JJ is just not worth gambling 75BB in these,no reason for it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah, I have to agree with Moxie. Initial raise was too big and calling the all-in with JJ is not recommended imo. I had a similar situation recently in the middle-late part of a tournament but it was me doing the shoving and getting 3 callers. I knew I was in trouble and did lose even though I was ahead preflop. In a multi-way pot, it's only with AA or KK I'm calling here. If it were heads up, I'd add AK and QQ to the mix, maybe JJ if I have a good read. I'd be interested what others have to say.

      Lester
      Follow me on Twitter

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey B, Just so you know I stopped the replayer when it was your action to call or fold so to look at this from where the question is. I feel you bet 200 to get a shove back since most times this is what happens in the beginning and I also feel you had every intention to call the shove and now just in doubt cause of how many are in before you. I see this as a fold. With this many in here you are most likely behind at least one player now and another is likely to hit the flop to put all of you behind. If the 25c isn't much to you though and are confident in your big stack game then this can easily be a call every time and even more so because of how many are in. If we lose we can walk away and load another game with no lost time and if we win the quadruple up is a definite advantage than just a double up when vs one opponent. Personally for me it depends on my roll. One of my sites I play I am well rolled ($200+) and still played games under $1 whether it was about time, availability, or just not playing my best and didn't want to risk much. On this site I would call every time. My other sites though this is different. I wouldn't have bet so much to begin with for I don't want to risk my stack vs even one opponent without at least seeing the flop first. evil:
        Join My Home Game Club - The Joker's Wild

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        • #5
          ty for that Moxie pip,

          yes the 200 raise was too big i agree but that didn't enter in to my call.

          I put the BB on a middling to weak hand or why not just raise, and the two limpers on a middle strength hand (or why not raise them selfs.)

          As i saw it at the time i need to win 34 times in 100 attempts for this to be +EV

          After the fact I put it into pokerstove and gave the 2 callers a range of 30% and the BB a range of 15%

          JJ in this case has a 37% equality which is above the 1/3 mark I need

          Giving the callers a 20% range and the shover a 10% range I thought gave JJ a 35% equaty.

          Just my thinking

          Grade b
          I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

          13 Time Bracelet Winner


          Comment


          • #6
            I'm against this play Grade B, your equity might be correct if it's a cash game but this is a tournament and your game is over if you lose. If you win on the other hand, it's not a guarantee you will even cash in this tournament never mind winning it.

            By folding, you still have a tournament life and you still have a chance to win.
            Bracelet Winner

            Comment


            • #7
              Raise to 120, fold to anything but a minraise. I'm never calling a shove by one player here, let alone 3 shovers. On the first hand, the only hand you should be going all in with is aces.
              Even if you were right about the various ranges (I think you've given them too wide ranges) JJ does not fare at all well 4-way. If each villain was getting it in here with 15% (all pairs, suited Broadways), you have about 35% equity, but you're not going to win 35% of the pot. You're going to win it all, or (more often) go busto.
              If the pot lays 34% then you're only gaining a 1% return on your money in the long run. Since you invested 25c equity in this tourney, Getting a 1% equity boost is virtually nothing. It's better to take the safe fold and know you still have 25c invested in the game. When someone busts out, he loses his 25c and it's divided among the remaining players. In effect, your equity is increased by folding here and letting 2 other players go busto.

              In SnGs, the chips you win early on are not as important as the chips you conserve for later. Make the safe fold and immediately jump 2 places up the ladder towards the money. It would be much better to wait for a spot where you're at least flipping, and often a 60-40 or 80-20 favourite to double up.
              Bracelet Winner

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Grade b View Post
                ty for that Moxie pip,

                yes the 200 raise was too big i agree but that didn't enter in to my call.

                I put the BB on a middling to weak hand or why not just raise, and the two limpers on a middle strength hand (or why not raise them selfs.)

                As i saw it at the time i need to win 34 times in 100 attempts for this to be +EV

                After the fact I put it into pokerstove and gave the 2 callers a range of 30% and the BB a range of 15%

                JJ in this case has a 37% equality which is above the 1/3 mark I need

                Giving the callers a 20% range and the shover a 10% range I thought gave JJ a 35% equaty.

                Just my thinking

                Grade b

                This is where just running dry numbers through an equity calculator can get you in trouble sometimes B.

                Pokerstove doesn't know if you're entering a hand from a ring table,an SNG,an MTT,a satty or a league game. It can't account for WHERE you are in the game as to the blinds. Tourney EV is a real consideration here,as game theory matters in a spot like this one.

                In a structure where the majority of players are fish,who will happily pay us off in spots that are much more in our favor than a narrow edge spot for our whole stack like this one,it's just not in our best interests to lower OUR game to THEIR level. That,more than anything else,is what makes JJ,QQ or AK a pass here. AA and KK put us in such more of a dominant position in this same spot that those hands I would take the plunge here. Every time.

                My rule 1 for navigating the micro games is always this: never try to beat bad players,make bad players try to beat me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have to agree, shoving JJ into 3 previous shoves is not a long term winning play. In the early going your tourney equity trumps everything else. AA and KK (maybe) are the only hands I'm shoving here.

                  Bracelet Winner


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi all,

                    Personally I think you are giving us 25 cent game players way too much credit.

                    I remember last year I was thinking the same as you. I thought that I read a thread here about calling with TT if the whole table shoved.

                    I argued that it was a bad move as 1 tight player on the table could only do this with AA. It was argued that overall equity meant even though we might be behind this time, those times we won we are set in the tourny and so it was ok.

                    Now admittedly its me remembering this and as I remember it was not stated when in the tournament to do this I guess I just assumed it would be OK first hand

                    What you guys are now saying is that does not apply in this case.

                    Great back to the drawing board. Any good and easy resouses on tournament equity.

                    Ps does it change anything if you look at it as two limpers and one overshove in the BB
                    Grade B
                    Last edited by Grade b; Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:04 PM. Reason: Added ps
                    I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

                    13 Time Bracelet Winner


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi grade b! With JJ and 3 limpers in front of me, I'm going to make a standard raise (3BB+1BB for each limper), so I'll raise to 120. I want to keep all my raises standard to conceal the strength of my hand. I then get 3 shoves to my raise. While JJ is a decent made hand, it doesn't play very well in multiway pots. Even if the opps are shoving every single hand, with 3 opps, JJ is still an underdog here, as I'll lose more than 50% of the time. If the opps are playing only top 20% hands (looser than what I'd assume), I'm down to winning about 1 in 3. Normally in this type of situation, with unknown opps, I'd give a 20% range to the first shove, 10% to the second and 5% to the third. Using this, I'm down to only winning 28% of the time. Due to this, I'm mucking here and looking for a better situation to get my chips into... one where I'm the favorite to win the hand. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)
                      Super-Moderator



                      6 Time Bracelet Winner


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ty everyone the over welmimg message here is its too early to be making this play, i shall (try) make that adjustment (although not sure if it will come up again) for those wondering how it turned out here it is. Grade b
                        I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

                        13 Time Bracelet Winner


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Grade b View Post
                          ty everyone the over welmimg message here is its too early to be making this play, i shall (try) make that adjustment (although not sure if it will come up again) for those wondering how it turned out here it is. Grade b
                          At least I'm not the only one who drinks too much

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            JWK, I like to set mine in this spot (although I do raise as well, always good to mix it up). My reasons are several fold, the blinds are low and pots are low, by raising and winning pre flop, we are only winning a low pot which isn't much to our relative stack.

                            Raising also at micro stakes will usually get callers but the flop will bring an A, K or Q a good portion of the time. We won't really know where we stand in the hand with so many callers.

                            Set mining disguises our hand and when we do hit we invariably get paid with a decent sized pot. Also if we miss and there are no overcards we can still get paid with our JJ while we can throw the hand away if someone shows us much aggression.

                            At micro stakes there is no thinking with our opponents. If we raise we won't get the credit JJ deserves. A raise at higher stakes might get the respect but as in this case our raise just induced 4 all in's which we don't want at this stage of the game.
                            Bracelet Winner

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Ovalman!

                              I can definitely make a case for setmining here too. I'd say that in this situation, I'd raise about 60% of the time and semine the other 40%.

                              John (JWK24)
                              Super-Moderator



                              6 Time Bracelet Winner


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