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NLH $4.40 Turbo MTT - KK in position against a gut shot.

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  • NLH $4.40 Turbo MTT - KK in position against a gut shot.

    Hi all, should I have been able to get away from this one?!

    Another situation where I'm wondering if I am busting out of too many tournaments in these kind of situations, or am I right to think that most of the time I'm going to be in good shape and playing my spot well?

    So it's early stages of the tournament and I don't have a lot of info about anyone at the table. I have PokerTracker running but the hand samples are small. I've been lucky enough to get an early double up and have 5.2k in chips.

    I'm in mid pos with KK with one limper ahead of me with 5.4k in chips, blinds are 60/120. I raise to 600, it folds back round to the limper who calls. The flop comes down Qs6c9d rainbow. He min raises! I bet just under the size of the pot to 1.4k. He calls. Turn comes down Td. He checks. I shuv for the rest of my stack of 3.1k into a pot of 4.4k. He calls with KJ for the nut straight. River is a brick.

    So, pre flop I'm thinking I'm ahead! He calls and so I'm putting him on small to medium pockets broadway cards or a raggy ace, that kind of thing. The flop is obviously good for me and I'm convinced I'm way ahead or loosing to a set of 6s, maybe 9s but I think he would prob raise pre with 9s or Qs. Maybe he has AQ or KQ which is good for me and this is pretty much what i put him on for the rest of the hand.

    His silly little raise on the flop is just odd and I put it down to online madness and don't worry about it too much. When he calls my big reraise I'm thinking I'm crushed by a set or way ahead of AQ. In a sense, I don't mind loosing to a set, it's just one of those things and it is a turbo tourni so I want to get chipped up early if pos. Also, with the size of bet I made on the flop I feel pot comitted as I would only have had 25BB if I fold on the turn.

    When the turn comes and he checks to me I'm thinking it doesn't really change anything as at no point did I put him on KJ once he had called my pot sized bet on the flop and KJ was the only reasonable draw that had come in. So, I'm carrying on with my approach of loosing to a set or way ahead of AQ.

    Did I do OK and just get unlucky or did I go wrong with my bet sizing or inability to fold and save my tournament life for a better spot?

    Cheers, K.

    http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=6256F2F0FD
    Last edited by CptKevUK; Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:38 PM.

  • #2
    Hi Kevin! Preflop, I want to make a standard raise to help conceal the strength of my hand (will make the same raise with AA, KK, 44, AK or even garbage as a bluff). For this blind level, my std is to raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper. With one limper, I'll raise to 4BB or 480. Making larger or smaller raises than a std raise is one of the largest online tells and due to that I try to make my bets standard to avoid this. The flop brings 3 overcards, but a possible gutshot straight. The opp leads into me with a very small bet, which I'd take as a blocking bet to a draw, or a single pair (wouldn't expect a pair of Q's though as they should bet to protect it). I want to raise here to protect my overpair and price out a draw and to do so, I'll raise 1/2 the size of the pot. By raising this amount, it will make the opp drawing to a straight, 6, 9 or Q a -EV play as they'll have to put a higher % into the pot than their hand has equity. The opp calling should mean that they have a pair, 2 pair, set or a draw. The turn brings a 10 that completes a straight for 78 or KJ, both of which are within the opps range, especially 78. In this situation, I'm going to make a value bet and size it at 2/3 of the pot. I need to make it larger than the flop bet, as there are both a flush, straight and combo draw available that the opp could have. If I bet less, then I will give the opp a +EV play to draw at me. Because of this type of situation is why I don't want to overbet preflop or on the flop, as I'd then have to make a larger bet in order to price out the opps possible draws. I want to price out the opp, but also, just incase the opp has a better hand, I'm using some pot control too. By making the slightly smaller bets during the hand, I'd have seen the river to see that it should be a blank. There are already too many chips in the pot to fold, so if the opp bets, I'm calling since I'm pot committed. If the opp checks, then I'm shoving. When the opp flips over KJ, I'm making a note on the opp that they will not bet nor raise when they're holding the nuts. KJ should be lead shoving the turn to protect their straight against 2 pair or a set. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)
    Super-Moderator



    6 Time Bracelet Winner


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    • #3
      Hi John.

      Thanks for the HA. That is proper interesting. So, my main leak here is bad bet sizing. I clearly need to work on my EV knowledge.

      My other problem is more of a 'personal' one rather than a maths one that because i would never play KJo out of position like that myself I struggle to beleive that someone else would do it. Which is ironic as that is exactly what I am looking for, bad play from others out of position.

      So if my bet sizing had been better I would have lost less in the same situation. I need to work out what i would have had left if the play went like you suggested it might. But whatever it was it would have been more that a big fat zero!!

      Great feedback, thanks. K.

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      • #4
        Hi Kevin! Something that you'll see the more that you play is that there are some opponents that will stay with any ace, any suited cards and any broadway cards... especially early in a tourney and will chase any draws with them too. When I see plays like this is when I start to make notes on the opp (Dave's got a session on note taking too in the video section). Good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)
        Super-Moderator



        6 Time Bracelet Winner


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        • #5
          Originally posted by CptKevUK View Post
          Hi John.

          My other problem is more of a 'personal' one rather than a maths one that because i would never play KJo out of position like that myself I struggle to beleive that someone else would do it. Which is ironic as that is exactly what I am looking for, bad play from others out of position.
          Great feedback, thanks. K.
          I struggle with the same problem myself, putting yourself in the other person's mindset can be difficult. Sometimes there's just no rhyme or reason for some of the things they will call with (I lost a hand tonite, UTG made a standard raise, flop was 654 rainbow, I called a c-bet holding Ad5d, turn was a 5 and I shoved with trips, my opponent had 78o). I just couldn't put them on that kind of hand with an UTG raise at a final table, especially as I would fold that hand UTG myself.

          With practice it gets easier to read them, but there will always be those times that you read them wrong.

          Bracelet Winner


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          • #6
            Hi Joy. Yeh, it's a difficult thing to do but clearly something we both need to work on, lol!

            It comes down to two things I think, knowledge of EV and awareness of the style of all of our opponents. The more training stuff I look at here at PSO is just how much thought the guys put into ranging the people they are in a hand with, and I simply don't do it enough. I'm playing my cards way too much and committing too many chips in situations where I don't necessarily have the winning hand.

            My sit with KK and yours with the trips are very similar aren't they. We want to think we have the right hand rather mining for information to make sure we do and potentially being able to get away from it if we don't.

            Dave talks about this very thing in one of his videos, the one about ranging I think, saying that less experienced players tend to work out what they don't want their opponent to have rather than working out what they actually have. That is definitely my problem. I find myself thinking 'I hope he's got this or he hasn't got that' rather than putting him on a range and trying to evaluate if I have a positive EV against that range. It's going to take me a while to get my head round these things but I'm determined to do it as I think I will enjoy playing so much more if my risk benefit analysis is more accurate.

            I don't know the stack sizes in your hand with the A5d and it may be that you did the right thing in shoving in that spot as the chances of him flopping a straight are pretty slim even if you could put him a hand like that.

            Interesting stuff, thanks for taking the time to comment on my post

            K.

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