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First hand. bad play or good play?

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  • First hand. bad play or good play?

    First hand in a $1.50 9 man. For a change I have a premium hand. Which is nice. Preflop, I'm making a big raise. My thoughts were that I really wanted to build a pot. Just in case I only get preflop value, I don't wanna end up with just 4x from one caller. And experience tells me a number of people at this level will call thjis raise pretty liberally anyways. So I settle for an 8x raise, double my normal raise at this level. The Big Blind calls. The flop could be better of course with the Ace being there. Not my favorite card in the deck. The BB checks, and I decide to go for a cbet. He could have the ace of course with his preflop call, but we'll find that out soon enough I think. BB flats. Hmm. Maybe he does indeed hold the ace. Turn's a blank and out of the blue the opp donk shoves into me. I pretty much instacalled him here. Looking back, I can see a kazillion reasons for mucking the queens (he had the ace, he hit his flush although I must admit - I didn't notice the 3card flush until just now) but something told me he didn't have the ace. I think if he had the ace, he would probably have checked it to me again as on the flop. I'd been betting into him on pre and post so far, so in his place I'd expect another bet on the turn. The donk just made his move look very suspicious. Frankly, I was prepared to call and bang my head if he did turn over the ace. Big surprise as he flips over K6 off. This is why we play the micros I guess. Thoughts on play and thinking here? --------------------------------------------------- keeping track of my poker semi-career: ov3rsight.blog.com
    The Road to Fame and Fortune - Keeping track of my poker semi-career
    Keep up to date: @Ov3rsight



  • #2
    Hi Ov3rsight!

    Comments...

    Originally posted by Ov3rsight View Post
    Preflop, I'm making a big raise. My thoughts were that I really wanted to build a pot. Just in case I only get preflop value, I don't wanna end up with just 4x from one caller. And experience tells me a number of people at this level will call thjis raise pretty liberally anyways. So I settle for an 8x raise, double my normal raise at this level. The Big Blind calls.
    You have a "big pot" hand, but as it is the first hand of the SNG, you can easily be called only by better holdings, and fold out worse ones with a raise this size. I would like your thoughts more here if:

    A) You had seen a couple of hands with numerous limpers and/or limper/callers of raises.
    B) You had some HUD data from past SNG on at least 1 opp that indicates he may call a big pre flop raise weakly.

    The reality is: the large over bet you made pre could result in you getting no callers at all (unless you are beat), and that would be LESS than even a single caller of a more standard open raise size might give you. You do not have info yet to say what might happen.

    Originally posted by Ov3rsight View Post
    The flop could be better of course with the Ace being there. Not my favorite card in the deck. The BB checks, and I decide to go for a cbet. He could have the ace of course with his preflop call, but we'll find that out soon enough I think. BB flats. Hmm. Maybe he does indeed hold the ace.
    After you made the big raise pre, what WORSE hands can reasonably call you when you have no info on opps?

    - Are 2 random diamonds (that do not include an Ad) calling your big pre flop raise?
    - Is JJ/TT/99 calling your C bet to bring themselves up to a commitment threshold with an A on board?
    - Is 65 or T9 calling your big raise pre?

    You've got no info, thus no clue.

    In this spot, it is pretty hard to fathom that an A that is willing to call the big pre flop raise will now FOLD that A. This means you are taking a hand with some marginal showdown value, and betting yourself up to right at a 33% commitment point as a "bluff". Why not check behind to0 keep yourself farther from a commitment point instead of turning a hand with some showdown value into a bluff that may not work?

    Originally posted by Ov3rsight View Post
    Turn's a blank and out of the blue the opp donk shoves into me. I pretty much instacalled him here. Looking back, I can see a kazillion reasons for mucking the queens (he had the ace, he hit his flush although I must admit - I didn't notice the 3card flush until just now) but something told me he didn't have the ace.
    The turn was not a blank at all. It put a 3rd diamond on board. A "blank" would have been something like the 2c.

    Originally posted by Ov3rsight View Post
    I think if he had the ace, he would probably have checked it to me again as on the flop. I'd been betting into him on pre and post so far, so in his place I'd expect another bet on the turn. The donk just made his move look very suspicious.

    Frankly, I was prepared to call and bang my head if he did turn over the ace. Big surprise as he flips over K6 off. This is why we play the micros I guess.
    As you had gotten yourself stuck so deeply, first by your big pre flop raise, then with your C-Bet, the fact you picked up the diamond re-draw to the 2nd nut flush would be "enough" to make me think about calling any bet the villain might make too.

    I do think you are POSSIBLY correct that an A without the Kd would check the turn, although I'd think a top/top hand would be ready to donk lead or C/R the flop given the low SPR you created. Bottom line though, this is the 1st hand, and you really have no info at all to think anything about the opp really so you cannot say how he may play a big A he has no intention of folding.

    Originally posted by Ov3rsight View Post
    Thoughts on play and thinking here?
    While there CAN be "reason" to raise as you did pre flop, you also must accept the fact that QQ will tend to see at least 1 over card almost 42% of the time. You also must recognize that the stack to pot ratio you create by raising so large will favor opponents stacking off with top pair/good kicker hands, and since an A or a K will make up a big part of a call range, ANY over card represents a big threat to your hand.

    C-Betting with an A on board will tend to turn your QQ into a "bluff", and a half pot type bet on continuation has VERY little chance to work in the pot you bloated pre flop. With very little in the way of improvement chances for QQ if you are beat, getting yourself up against a 1/3rd commitment point by C-Betting is REALLY dangerous for your stack.

    The truth is that "standard" plays tend to become STANDARD because they are usually the best play in the widest range of circumstances. Deviating from more standard plays should be done only with a "reason", and also with a plan of action if something un-favorable happens.

    It strikes me that you entered this hand with the intent of betting it up for value pre flop, then you switched to a bluff on continuation when something bad happened, and when the opp bombed his chips in on a relatively scary card you felt you were "stuck".

    As it happens you got pretty lucky to find that the opp was the type who was probably just WAITING for a scary turn card to fire a big bluff at you, so he could take down the pot you built up. Without info on the opp, I think this is quite lucky indeed that you did not fold away 1/3rd your chips to the threat, and that when you didn't fold it was also quite lucky that the opp wasn't WAY over playing some weak Ace.

    I think if you had entered the hand with a "plan" for what to do in case things did not work out well for QQ when you decided to raise a much larger than standard amount, or if you had just stuck with a more standard entry line, you could have had a much easier time with your decisions than you probably had here.

    Hope it helps.

    -JDean
    Last edited by JDean; Sat Mar 10, 2012, 11:58 AM.
    Double Bracelet Winner

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    • #3
      As I thought then - some bad moves on my part
      The Road to Fame and Fortune - Keeping track of my poker semi-career
      Keep up to date: @Ov3rsight


      Comment


      • #4
        Interesting reasoning behind the PFR... I guess if it works, go with it. I really can't think of anything wrong with making a huge raise if people are going to call it with worse, although I seldom make plays like that myself.

        On the flop, recognize that if somebody called your PFR with worse than QQ, they're probably a bad player. And what cards do bad players hold on to more than any other...? Aces, of course. I would c-bet, but absolutely give up if they call.

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