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Blind and dead money defence with Q10 suited

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  • Blind and dead money defence with Q10 suited

    Memory based and hand unsaved. It is of interest to me - mostly because I have a multiple tournament read on 1 of players that I remembered. First time ever given the volume of players in the tournaments I play).

    I hope the request format is ok. Correct me if frown on. I am also trying to learn forum protocol and etiquette in addition to poker.

    1. By what factor did I overplay this hand given my understanding of the circumstances?
    2. Am I putting to much into my reads and reads of reads?
    3. Do the reads have some semblance of sense?

    EDIT: 9 man table, mid tournament.
    Situation PSQ
    Blinds 50-100
    Villain1 (4200 chips) late position
    Villain2 (600 chips) button
    Hero (4000 chips) on small blind
    Villain3 (2000 chips? Something neither big nor small)

    V1 - 3bets 300. I know him from earlier. My read: A solid unemotional player. Has my red "nice person" label (I may not be using label system optimally). His bet says he has something (particularly due to V2). High pair 88 at worst, high connectors suited (J10 at worst), AJ suited at worst. He may be betting on autoshove expectation from V2.

    V2 - Shoves 600 (of course). My read: Button shove would be typical: He could have anything and probably does.

    Hero Q10 suited - Raises to 900. Highest I can go without committing really and is 3 times what V3 has committed so far. If V3 or V2 reraise, then my read is they have wonderful cards and I fold. Otherwise I see the flop. Reraise is justified by blind defence (I will not be giving those up for free), Dead money, My expectation that V2 has seen pretty unimaginative play by me previously (I know he keeps track - he commented earlier on my doing ok in PSQ until falling to 500th place the day before. He wondered what happened). The re-raise will carry weight I think and he will need to have great cards - otherwise he will go for pot control.

    V3 Folds

    V1 Calls.

    small card, small card, 10. Possible flush draw.

    Hero. Top pair, decent kicker. Check. My read: I need more information. A V2 check will tell me I have best hand if most likely AK does not show on river. So will push hard if they do not show. A bet to 1/3 is just probing. He does not have a pair that beats 10. A higher bet means he is comfortable. So I fold.

    V1: min raises.

    Hero: Bets 1 200. Slightly more than 30% of both our remaining stacks. My read on V1s read of me: He now knows I probably have at least 10 with a decent kicker. Probably a K or A. Perhaps a J or Q connector spiel. Not likely I am aggressively playing a flush draw. Trips are possible, with trip10 the most likely.
    Last edited by jergul; Thu Mar 08, 2012, 05:25 PM. Reason: 9-man table. mid tourney

  • #2
    Hi Jergul,

    I am going to assume that as the table has 4 players, you are down to the final 4? If so, I'm assuming it was a 6-man SnG paying top 2?

    I think your assumption of V1 raising to induce V2 to call is going to be correct a large percentage of the time. However, V1 should still have a pretty solid range.

    It is pretty easy to get married to suited high cards, especially in the blinds, but I think I am likely to fold Q-10 here the majority of the time as it is so easy to be dominated or 60-40 dog against any ace.

    Even if you do perceive V1 to be weak, a raise to 900 is actually achieving very little - he is priced in to call with many hands and you cannot call if he shoves. Also, by putting chips into the pot, if V2 wins the pot (possible if you have Q-10 and you put V1 on a weak hand), V2 will be up to around a 2k stack and in with a chance.

    With a 4k stack, if you are playing Q-10, you want to be heads up really. In a 3-way pot, you still do not know whether hitting top pair is good, and putting 1/4 of your stack in pre-flop limits your options for post-flop play as the pot is close to your remaining stack size.

    If you are confident V1 will fold Ax / low pairs / K9+ and he doesn't have AJ+, then you could shove and get heads-up with V2 for around 1600 chips. This would still be a risky play - how likely is Q-10 ahead pre-flop against V2's range? Probably not looking good - any K / A are ahead.

    Clearly you have more information of the players in question, but I would fold Q-10 to a raise and shove, especially as you thought that V1 was hoping for the shove from V2 to call.

    Lets see what the actual pro's think!



    • #3
      Thanks for the comments!

      And haha@self, I better qualify a bit more (so initial post fail even after editing. Which answers one of my questions).

      This is around half done of a 200 odd man Poker School Qualifier tournament.

      I guess my supplemental question would be:

      4. What kind of cards to I need to defend blinds with a re-raise under the circumstances then as Q-10 suited seems a bit low by commentary above?


      • #4
        In my opinion it's a fold. However, if you're going to make a move and rep a hand don't go part way. Your bet sizing pre wreaks of weakness and like said before prices V1 in to call. If anything you want to get this heads up vs V2 so rep a big hand if you so choose and try to at least push V1 out. If its me, however, I'm most likely folding since V2 is all in and waiting for a better spot.

        Don't defend your blinds just to defend your blinds or you throw good money after bad. Pick your spots and be more aggressive when you do. You don't want to be playing mediocre hands that can be dominated out of position post flop.
        Last edited by folkstix; Thu Mar 08, 2012, 08:02 PM.


        • #5
          Hi jergul! This is what I would do in a cash tourney (didn't see that it was a league game until after evaluating it). What I would do in a league game is at the bottom of my analysis here. Cash tourney: Preflop: V1 makes a std open raise to 3BB. This most likely doesn't have anything to do with V2, but is just a std open and can be done with really any hand.... as long as they are always opening for a raise to 3BB. V2's shove is normal. If they play a hand with 6BB left, they should be shoving. If V1 is playing a tighter range, then being out of position, I'm mucking QTs here, as it's a 2-1 underdog against the opp's range. By raising with it, I'm bloating the pot and have to play the entire hand out of positon, which is a situation that I try to avoid. I want to preserve my chip position and get my chips into the pot with a better hand or when I'm in position. Flop: with top pair, I'm making a c-bet here. Checking makes my hand look weak and gives the lead in the hand to the opp. I don't want to fold top pair to a small bet and if I'm going to call their bet, it's better to make the bet first. If I was the opp and it was checked to me here, I'm making a value bet that would price out the flush draw with basically ATC. When raised to 1200, if I were the opp, I wouldn't necessarily put the hero on a 10. This large of a raise really looks more like a semi-bluff with two overcards. I'd rule out the flush draw, as the hero priced themselves out to draw at it by raising so much. League game: With reading down and seeing that this is a league game from a later post, QTs is an AUTOMUCK for me preflop. The goal in these tourneys is to last as long as possible to get the maximum league points that I can... without taking risks. The way to excel in these is to play tight, not take chances, not to play marginal hands, not to shove when less than 10BB (it's better to blind out than to shove a marginal hand) and to not defend the blinds with anything but a premium hand. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)

          6 Time Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            Much coolness and thanks

            Much appreciate calling spade a spade jigjig. I am trying to assimilate a lot of information these days and accentuating stupid play I should remove from my repertoire is very helpful. I remember better .

            I do have an aversion to getting blinded out. I should lose that too I see


            • #7
              Originally posted by jergul View Post

              I do have an aversion to getting blinded out. I should lose that too I see
              Only in this type of tourney, where you are earning points for higher finishes. In a regular tourney an aversion to blinding out is fine, you want to get your chips in before you lose all your fold equity.

              Bracelet Winner



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