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Was folding my KK the right move here???

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  • Was folding my KK the right move here???

    PokerStars Game #71525828643: Tournament #549011326, $15.00+$1.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2011/12/03 21:38:29 NZT [2011/12/03 3:38:29 ET]
    Table '549011326 15' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 1: Bariga_711 (2710 in chips)
    Seat 2: teokkkk (2930 in chips)
    Seat 3: i_are_evil (3000 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
    Seat 4: vichmaster (2890 in chips)
    Seat 5: pulse027 (3430 in chips)
    Seat 6: trippltop (3320 in chips)
    Seat 7: Misha.Soldat (3210 in chips)
    Seat 8: dolo06718 (2920 in chips)
    Seat 9: cyclonia (2700 in chips)
    vichmaster: posts small blind 10
    pulse027: posts big blind 20
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to cyclonia [Kd Ks]
    trippltop: folds
    Misha.Soldat: calls 20
    dolo06718: folds
    cyclonia: raises 80 to 100
    Bariga_711: calls 100
    teokkkk: calls 100
    vichmaster: folds
    pulse027: folds
    Misha.Soldat: calls 80
    *** FLOP *** [Tc Jc 7h]
    Misha.Soldat: checks
    cyclonia: bets 430
    Bariga_711: calls 430
    teokkkk: calls 430
    Misha.Soldat: raises 2680 to 3110 and is all-in
    cyclonia: folds
    Bariga_711: folds
    teokkkk: folds
    Uncalled bet (2680) returned to Misha.Soldat
    cyclonia said, "**** u better b able to beat KK"
    Misha.Soldat collected 2150 from pot
    Misha.Soldat: doesn't show hand
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 2150 | Rake 0
    Board [Tc Jc 7h]
    Seat 1: Bariga_711 folded on the Flop
    Seat 2: teokkkk (button) folded on the Flop
    Seat 4: vichmaster (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 5: pulse027 (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 6: trippltop folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: Misha.Soldat collected (2150)
    Seat 8: dolo06718 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: cyclonia folded on the Flop

    iam cyclonia with KK did i make the right call? (Fold) I didnt know much about the player but he seems to be quite loose aggressive but didnt realy know this to after this hand just wont to know wot i could of done to take it down or should of i called rember its at the start of a tourny that i won a seat into from a saterlight and dont get to play these higher payed games so that made me abit worred to i think? ne way the info woulf be gratly appreciated

    cheers guys

  • #2

    That is a tough spot. Let's break it down...

    First, you had a hand that had every reason to raise up pre flop, and your raise sizing was very standard at 3BB + 1 per limper ahead of you. You got multiple callers...

    Everyone at the table is between 2500 and 3000 chips, so with the blinds at 10/20 that means you are on very deep money with 125BB+ effective...

    I cannot say your pot size bet is bad here, because it went to the flop multi way, and there are a ton of possible draws here. Your 430 flop bet (pot size) puts you right around 19.5% invested...

    Normally, 19.5% is a point you do not want to flirt with very often unless you hold a hand you are EXTREMELY CERTAIN is the best; it is simply a big % to have to fold away if you get re-raised, so you want to be sure you can withstand a RR before you get that deep. BUT...

    In extremely deep money situations, you are looking at 135BB in your start stack, and possibly folding 26.5BB of that stack. If you FOLD you still have in excess of 100BB to recover on.

    That means ANY 1 pair hand is going to be a hand you do not want to stack off on very often at all.

    There is a possible straight here, VERY possible flush draws with 1 over to your Ks (12 out draws vs you with about 51.6% equity vs your KK if they see the turn and river), and of course 2 pairs and sets are always a possibility too. To rush your deep stack in on 1 pair here would be pretty foolhardy...

    You also have to consider that when you bet pot, BEFORE the guy goes all in, you see 2 callers of a big bet by you. That means you have no real clue if the are drawing, or on a real monster and calling to induce you to keep betting. EITHER of those callers could have you in trouble if they happen to have a hand they are willing to stand on behind you, and you do not know whether they will or not until YOU make your stand.

    Altogether, this means I do not see you doing anything else except fold a 1 pair hand to save 100BB+ in your stack. There is just too much of a chance you are beaten, and far too little chance you can draw out to the best hand if you are beaten now.

    If that jammer is bluffing, then he is really REALLY reck-less, and there is a good chance you'll find a better spot to double thru him later...

    Good fold.
    Last edited by JDean; Sat Dec 03, 2011, 12:35 PM.
    Double Bracelet Winner


    • #3
      I think it's an easy fold. Your equity is very uncertain vs. the villain who is check-raising the field all in, and you have 2 active players behind you yet. You're way too deep to stack off 1 pair in this situation imo.

      Flop bet is too big, if you get callers you'll have bloated the pot too much and there are a ton of turn scare cards. I'd bet less on the flop, or maybe even check for pot control and to induce. This is a pretty bad flop for KK tbh, I'm not looking to inflate the pot out of control here.
      Head Live Trainer
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      4 Time Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        Flop bet is too big but at the same time you can get action from so much worse. This is a very good fold. There is some chance you just got pushed out by AJ or even KJ, but there are so many sets, two pairs and even a straight possible. Plus you're flipping against his combo draws. With I'd be more likely to call as you're ahead of a lot his range (flush draws and flush+straight draws) and still have a lot of outs if you're wrong. Same goes for AcQc and KcQc. Whereas if you're wrong with KK you may not even have a whole two outs. At the same time you are still REALLY deep, so I'd still probably fold the nut flush draw here. REALLY don't like you telling them you folded KK though. You become super-bluffable. Let them think you folded like QJ or J9. You don't want to advertise that you're making super laydowns.
        Last edited by oriholic; Sat Dec 03, 2011, 09:41 PM.
        4 Time Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          Originally posted by oriholic View Post
          REALLY don't like you telling them you folded KK though. You become super-bluffable. Let them think you folded like QJ or J9. You don't want to advertise that you're making super laydowns.
          +1umbup: Don't give an opp in a cash tournament ANY information that they didn't pay to get.

          6 Time Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            ok cool cheers guys yea i need to just never show but 4 some dum reson i do lol.
            So u think i should just never show my hand at all
            i all so just played this hand and got nocked out when i dont think i should of (becoz i shouldnt of shoved PF) but printerr was big stack and pushing with alot of hand and i was think i wont to get him out of the hand so if i pushed all in PF with my QQ that mite do it but he called with 66 and got lucky buy hitting a sgr8 on the river but if i just called and then moved on the flop the way he was playing no matter wot he would of push with this draw (or mayb ne flop 4 that matter )and if u were playing this hand wot hands would u think he could hav that would make me flop my QQ?
            i hope these hands iam putting up are ok to talk about

            PokerStars Game #71679608677: Tournament #550010741, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (75/150) - 2011/12/06 13:28:09 NZT [2011/12/05 19:28:09 ET]
            Table '550010741 163' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
            Seat 1: aguaviva10 (5537 in chips)
            Seat 2: cyclonia (4604 in chips)
            Seat 3: lasegua (2797 in chips)
            Seat 4: barioni1974 (4944 in chips)
            Seat 5: TboostAC (2490 in chips) is sitting out
            Seat 6: SankaMan10 (1240 in chips)
            Seat 7: Suitsuviiruk (15806 in chips)
            Seat 8: pinterr157 (28853 in chips)
            Seat 9: segoclunin (2337 in chips)
            aguaviva10: posts the ante 20
            cyclonia: posts the ante 20
            lasegua: posts the ante 20
            barioni1974: posts the ante 20
            TboostAC: posts the ante 20
            SankaMan10: posts the ante 20
            Suitsuviiruk: posts the ante 20
            pinterr157: posts the ante 20
            segoclunin: posts the ante 20
            lasegua: posts small blind 75
            barioni1974: posts big blind 150
            *** HOLE CARDS ***
            Dealt to cyclonia [Qh Qc]
            TboostAC: folds
            SankaMan10: raises 1070 to 1220 and is all-in
            Suitsuviiruk: folds
            TboostAC is connected
            TboostAC has returned
            pinterr157: calls 1220
            segoclunin: folds
            aguaviva10: folds
            cyclonia: raises 3364 to 4584 and is all-in
            lasegua: folds
            barioni1974: folds
            pinterr157: calls 3364
            *** FLOP *** [3h 5s 4h]
            cyclonia said, "thats the 2nd hand i all most missed coz iam cleaning up my parnters spew"
            *** TURN *** [3h 5s 4h] [5d]
            *** RIVER *** [3h 5s 4h 5d] [2c]
            *** SHOW DOWN ***
            pinterr157: shows [6h 6c] (a straight, Deuce to Six)
            cyclonia: shows [Qh Qc] (two pair, Queens and Fives)
            pinterr157 collected 6728 from side pot
            SankaMan10: shows [Ah Jd] (a straight, Ace to Five)
            pinterr157 collected 4065 from main pot
            cyclonia finished the tournament in 1503rd place
            SankaMan10 finished the tournament in 1504th place
            *** SUMMARY ***
            Total pot 10793 Main pot 4065. Side pot 6728. | Rake 0
            Board [3h 5s 4h 5d 2c]
            Seat 1: aguaviva10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
            Seat 2: cyclonia (button) showed [Qh Qc] and lost with two pair, Queens and Fives
            Seat 3: lasegua (small blind) folded before Flop
            Seat 4: barioni1974 (big blind) folded before Flop
            Seat 5: TboostAC folded before Flop (didn't bet)
            Seat 6: SankaMan10 showed [Ah Jd] and lost with a straight, Ace to Five
            Seat 7: Suitsuviiruk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
            Seat 8: pinterr157 showed [6h 6c] and won (10793) with a straight, Deuce to Six
            Seat 9: segoclunin folded before Flop (didn't bet


            • #7
              in the QQ hand, you're basically going to be guaranteed to be in a 3-way pot. Yes, you have a premium hand, but any hand plays worse, the more that are in the pot.

              In this hand preflop, you're only going to win 56% of the time, so you will lose almost every other time. However, in the 56% that you do win, you get almost 11k chips.

              If this was a cash tourney, I'm calling it immediately, even though I'll lose almost every other time.

              In a PSO tourney, I'm most likely still playing the hand, although if I knew I needed a few points and didn't want the risk, then I'd muck preflop (although that only is going to happen the last couple of days of the month... and only if I absolutely need just a few points).

              6 Time Bracelet Winner


              • #8
                ok cool cheers guys yea i need to just never show but 4 some dum reson i do lol.
                Not exactly. But any time you're thinking about showing your cards, ask yourself what you're trying to accomplish. Showing an awesome laydown is probably not a good idea unless you think it will cause them to bluff more (in which case you should call more.) When the opponent sees your hand they get some information from you. If it's good information then you're only helping your opponents to play better against you. You're setting yourself up for future action. For instance you may want people to think you have a monster when you are really bluffing or to think you're bluffing when you have it, or to think you're a fish when you're not, etc. But this really gets into metagame and is very -EV if you don't know what you're doing.
                4 Time Bracelet Winner


                • #9
                  About the easiest spot ever to fold KK, you really can't hope for easier one so fold it and move on.
                  Friendly reminder - one hand per topic and hide the damn resutls



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