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Should I be firing the bullet or giving up earlier? 10nl zoom 6max

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  • Should I be firing the bullet or giving up earlier? 10nl zoom 6max

    I've been in a few spots like this recently. Here I 3bet as opener has high f3bet, especially oop. Recreational player calls. No info on him just see he is 1 tabling. He snap calls flop and turn. Should I be betting the turn? Even though I know he has a pretty weak range on the river here should I ever be trying to get him off his hand? I bet turn because I think he folds his a highs and smaller pairs a decent amount. If he doesn't fold them on the turn I guess there's no point in trying to push him off of them otr? Edit: This particular hand might not be the best example because he'll call turn with a lot of pairs with draws. Sometimes i'll be in a similar spot where turn brings a broadway and I barrell and they call quickly again.
    Bracelet Winner


  • #2
    Here's my 2 cents

    First lets look at your hand, KTs. What is your plan, what do you expect?
    - Your not going for a straight, 3 gap, not worth the re-raise
    - You hope to het another K, still not worth the re-raise
    - So I guess you're hoping for a flush, I wouldn't re-raise

    "Here I 3bet as opener has high f3bet, especially oop."
    So, if it happens that he's holding AA, those numbers mean nothing
    But to re-raise to isolate that particular player with still 4 players to act, I wouldn't

    "Recreational player calls. No info on him just see he is 1 tabling."
    You have no info on him, but you're able to judge that he's a recreational player?
    I often play one table and I see many others playing one table (regulars)
    He could be playing 6 tournaments and only 1 cash. You need to have notes on players before passing a judgement to help you in your decision.

    With the flop I would do the same as you Cbet, but afterward it's check fold

    "Even though I know he has a pretty weak range on the river here should I ever be trying to get him off his hand?"
    I'm just curious, if you have no info on this player, how can you come to that conclusion?
    The fact that he called your bet on the flop and I didn't catch on the turn, the answer would be no.

    "I bet turn because I think he folds his a highs and smaller pairs a decent amount."
    Again, you have no info on the player, but you're able to say that he will fold?

    Pre-flop - I call
    Post-flop - I CBet
    Turn - I check fold to a bet
    River - I check fold

    Basically, all this to say, again and again, numbers shouldn't dictate how you should play, you need notes on the players and you need a plan. Don't ASS U ME, if you do, you'll be spewing more than you'll win

    GL

    Comment


    • #3
      Villains range isn't necessarily that weak once the station us twice. Also, they CC your 3B IP. I would give them a pocket pair here. I don't like the barrel OTT. We're not even drawing to a nut-ted hand.

      If they're recreational 22-JJ. If not recreational maybe 88-JJ.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dirt eh View Post
        If they're recreational 22-JJ. If not recreational maybe 88-JJ.
        Hey dirt,

        Just a quick question, why wouldn't a recreational player have Ax (x being any card on the flop)?
        Even a recreational player can have a T9s or even a 67s. With no notes on the player, it's pretty hard to say

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah you're right Sand i don't have enough info, I'm just making an educational guess here. I think his snap calls indicate a hand he likes that isn't very strong, he'd have to think about raising at some point if he had a strong hand.

          It's true he may not be recreational, but I don't see many regs snap calling in these spots and i think it's a fair assumption. I play the 10nl zoom pool a lot these days, and it's very likely a person playing 1 table is a recreational player.

          I 3bet the hand because it's got some good blockers, and I don't think i can call profitably versus his range in these positions with this particular hand. Rather than fold, I believe I can make a profit by 3betting it because he only continues with a very tight range. If he does end up cold calling the hand has ok playability and i know he has a very strong range to call the 3bet so i proceed cautiously on kx etc. I'm not trying to get it in against aces, im not trying to flop a king and win his stack. I'm just trying to take a hand i would fold often here and win the pot pre flop.

          Looking back I agree 100% that betting the turn is bad on this board. Check/fold def the best play.
          Bracelet Winner

          Comment


          • #6
            Hey Paddy,

            Snap calling is not necessarily a tell
            If a regular is playing 8 tables, he's got a slow response, but someone who's 1 tabling as nothing better to do than just click asap.

            I personally mix my reaction to betting, sometimes I snap call, other times I let the timer go 3/4 of the way

            "I'm just trying to take a hand i would fold often here and win the pot pre flop"
            Makes sense, but with 4 players to act, not much info on the players, it's a gamble. I'll do it, but I have about 7-8 lines of notes on the players. But my main reason in doing so, is that I've got lots of profit and can gamble a bit, just like any big stacks bullying the small ones.

            Hope this makes sense
            GL

            Comment


            • #7
              Certainly does Sand. Thanks for the input i love reading your view on hands.

              I think I'm answering my own question when I look at the hand. If villain is a recreational player like I believed him to be, then there isn't much point in trying to bluff him off his hand. We make most of our monies from value betting these guys, not bluffing.
              Bracelet Winner

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Paddy Gar View Post
                We make most of our monies from value betting these guys, not bluffing.
                + 1000 umbup:

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
                  Hey dirt,

                  Just a quick question, why wouldn't a recreational player have Ax (x being any card on the flop)?
                  Even a recreational player can have a T9s or even a 67s. With no notes on the player, it's pretty hard to say
                  Well they could have ANYTHING but considering the action is raise and 3-bet... most players aren't going to stick around with Ax and suited connectors when they can just QUICK fold and move onto the next hand. If "I" was going to range this villain I would be giving them a pocket pair or at worse Ax SUITED. This is ZOOM so yea... QUICK FOLD is in play here.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Am working on my turn spots as well

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Okay, so c-betting and double-barreling are kind of funny in the sense that, like we all probably start doing it ... and then we go back and start learning to do it well? You know what I mean, like the need to double-barrel comes up before we'll have a chance to study all the nuances of it, in all it's complexity, or whatever? Ehhh ... Anyways ... have just started studying turn spots in more depth away from the tables, and some random observations so far are:
                      1. Double-barreling can be expensive if they don't work, with the compounding! So, that's like motivation to try and get better - fast! 2. When the board's wet, a casual player can have a really wide range of value hands (both marginal and strong), as well as a lot of junk ... 3. So maybe equity becomes especially key?
                      So ... okay, I guess we're supposed to be thinking about what turn cards we might want to double-barrel with on the turn (and what cards wouldn't be good for double-barreling). But so far I've been waiting until the turn to do that, because there's so much to think about on the flop Maybe the following turn cards would add to our real equity? T, K, any heart And then the following would add some real equity, and some fold equity? J, Q And then the following might add some fold equity? A You know what, I had a hand yesterday where I double-barrelled and felt like a clown afterwards, when I saw that the villain had flopped TP - but it turns out my equity on the turn was actually pretty good. Guess there was always a chance some of my outs weren't good, but ... not sure I've always been double-barreling in spots like these, so maybe not double-barreling can sometimes be a mistake as well, when we have decent equity?

                      [/spoiler] Cliffs: CAUTION, student ranger

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yeah Sam you're right about having a plan. I should have decided on what cards to barrell turn here, if i had I would not have bet on a 4 brick. Hearts, a queen/ king and ace would be the best cards to do it on.

                        I think in your hand villain has a really strong draw like yourself when they call turn or qx, but the turn bet could still fold out some better hands so i dont mind it personally.
                        Bracelet Winner

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Actually, now that I think about it, what I'm really thinking on the turn usually is more like, "omg, villain called - now what??" Which is the problem Hence the studies umbup: Paddy, just posted a hand recently in my 2014 thread where I double-barrelled on a turn card that probably I shouldn't have either - think there's lots of us at 10nl who do that ... work in progress for a lot of us

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think the discussion has already covered things nicely here.

                            Preflop, I think calling is going to be better in the long run as our hand plays well enough postflop and isn't really strong enough to 3b for value. We are going to have position on the original raiser as well. As played, the btn calls your 3b. Without more information on him, I would put him on a range of Ax, pocket pairs and some suited connectors 109+.

                            Cbetting the flop looks good. You keep the initiative and have many ways to improve. When the villain calls I agree with Sandtrap that we need to slow down. About the only hand in the villain's range that we are beating would be J10. Hopefully we can check the turn and see the river for free. As played, you bet the turn and got called again. This is important imo for the river action.

                            Villain cold called our 3b pf, called flop and called turn. The villain is unknown but assumed to be a weaker player. If we were to generalize about a weaker recreational player, the first thing that comes to mind is that they tend to call too much. If we knew the villain was a chaser capable of folding a missed draw on the river, then we could consider firing a 3rd barrel, but here we don't know that. All the information indicates the opposite. Your line has been super strong, and betting the river is probably the only way to win the hand. However, I don't expect the villain to fold one pair hands here often enough to make bluff betting the river profitable.

                            Be careful with situations like this one when our plans go awry. I think the preflop 3b got you heading down a slippery slope on this one.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              oops - posted in the wrong thread ... d'oh!

                              Comment

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