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HELP! 25NL sessions

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  • HELP! 25NL sessions

    This is how my sessions have been going lately. Can someone explain what's happening here? Does this graph show why I'm leaking money or is there a report that I can look at to figure out what's happening?

    I'll win 1 big pot then I leak money until I win another BIG POT, then I lead money. One BIG probleme here is that when I'm leaking money... and then I'm losing or getting sucked out on in the big pots then I'm going from a break even session to a massive losing session.


  • #2
    Totally standard graph for a typical ABC/TAG.

    I'm playing a bit more loosely these days, so my redline is a bit flatter than it used to be, but I often only play about 1 big pot (over 100bb) every 150 hands or so. Without opening up the tracker to check, I'd estimate that I'm only all in about once every 220 hands. Winning that one big pot can make it a very profitable session. Losing it is a nightmare, as it takes 1000 hands (at 10bb/100) to regain a lost buyin. That's why poker is such a grind. You rarely win several big pots in a short period, and have to grind it out steadily.
    Bracelet Winner


    • #3
      Not too sure Dirt but I think that's one of the pitfalls of zoom. How many tables do you run? If it's more than 2 zoom tables the little losses add up super quick.

      I'd look at 10-35bb pots in your database from recent sessions just to see if there's anything sticking out though. C/folding too often, cbetting good board textures for your opponents perceived range etc.

      You're undoubtedly getting floated more at 25nl too, I guess a 25nl player would be better able to help here. Just my thoughts.
      Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        I'll look at my 10-35bb pots... I know that I'm losing a ton of those. I'm definitely not playing ABC/TAG but I think my gap between VPIP and PFR is too large now for 25nl. I find that 25nl zoom is WAAAAY more aggressive than 10nl so I think I might need to tighten up the "gap" in order to have initiative throughout the hands.

        Here' are my stats so far for 25nl ZOOM (16,140 hands)
        VPIP: 27, PFR: 22, 3B: 8, AF: 2.2
        Steal Pct: 52.2, Overall Steal Success: 49.3


        • #5
          Hey dirt,

          You can take a look at this thread to give you an idea on stats

          You can also read my journey from 10NL to 200NL

          It's not because you play Zoom. I only played Zoom cash with 4 tables and didn't have any problems. I personally think your VPIP, PFR and 3Bet are way to high (especially your PFR and 3Bet)

          Hope things get better


          • #6
            Hey dirt,

            Your graph does look ABC TAG. While your preflop stats aren't very TAG, and you may not feel like you're playing ABC TAG, you may be getting a similar graph to one because, like Trap said, you're playing too many hands. So what may be happening is you're seeding your preflop ranges with too many weak hands, which is resulting in a weaker distribution post flop and forcing you into a lot more spots you have to give up or can't contest profitably.

            Just as a comparison, I have played about 10K hands at 25NL 6-max so far this month... my stats are:

            VPIP: 18.05
            PFR: 14.59
            3B: 6.8
            3B vs. BU: 14.43
            AF: 3.2

            And the graph looks like this:

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            4 Time Bracelet Winner


            • #7
              Thanks Everyone! Dave, why soooo nitty? Just kidding. I actually fixed my problem... For some reason I forgot about a little thing called POT CONTROL! hahaha. Profits are going back up like they were before!

              I was playing a 21/19 style last year. I've migrated it all the way up to 27/22 and the bb/100 is going up. I could easily go back down to a lessor VPIP but it's just not as fun!
              Last edited by dirt eh; Sat May 17, 2014, 09:09 AM.


              • #8
                Dave nitty....LOL

                My 25NL Zoom stats for 205,000 hands are:
                VPIP: 16.88
                PFR: 12.86
                3Bet: 6.99
                AF: 2.05

                Yes your VPIP are a bit high, but it's mainly the rest that are out of wack

                I looked at my database on PT4
                Players I have played against with over 3,000 hands
                Top winning regulars stats vary between:
                VPIP: 13:34 - 18.12
                PFR: 11.67 - 15.80
                3Bet: 3.23 - 7.31
                AF: 1.86 - 2.58


                • #9
                  ^ Considering both Dave and Sandtrap have such a significant post flop edge on the player pool, playing that tight is pretty bad game theory wise.

                  You want to maximize your exposure to profitable opportunities, which means being in more marginal situations.


                  • #10
                    The theory part is true, you need it to learn how to play, but at one point you need to adjust at different levels and I would say, most of the theory goes out the window and that's because you're playing against known players.
                    If everybody was to play with only the theory, nobody would win.

                    Birdayy, I've seen lots of hands you've posted and I would say that the majority of them I would of folded. If it works for you great, can't wait to see you at 200NL

                    Good Luck


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by birdayy View Post
                      ^ Considering both Dave and Sandtrap have such a significant post flop edge on the player pool, playing that tight is pretty bad game theory wise.

                      You want to maximize your exposure to profitable opportunities, which means being in more marginal situations.
                      True but surely opening wider ranges EP vs unknown players and flatting to many hands is bad unless you know exactly how your going to exploit that player. Just like flatting 9Ts on BU vs any player that 3b from the blinds is bad, you cant flat to smash the board you would be flatting to make a play on which ever street you think you can take the pot away on.


                      • #12
                        Thanks Sand. Played a little at 100nl this week so maybe by then end of the year we'll be battling at 200nl.

                        @mike, most of regulars VPIP come in later positions. Some mid stakes guys open over 60% on the button. That has a significant effect on stats.

                        For example, an 18/16 may open 10/13/20/30/25 via position, whilst a 26/21 may open 12/17/28/60/45. Most of the change in numbers is in later position.

                        An important thing to remember is that you don't need to win money playing a hand. All you need to do is loose less than if you folded.

                        A common example of this is in the big blind vs a button steal. You will have a wide, weak range that will have to check/fold a tonne of flops.

                        However, if you are loosing at a rate that's less than if you just folded getting 3:1, then it's going to be more profitable (or less loosing lol) calling pre.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by birdayy View Post
                          Some mid stakes guys open over 60% on the button. That has a significant effect on stats.
                          And profit too.
                          FWIW, I think it's a mistake to open quite that wide in general. It opens you up to being exploited by the "3-bet ATC defenders", unless you really want to play 3b pots with 74s and A9o.
                          I'd rather reduce the variance (and probably increase winrate and dollars/hour in zoom formats) by folding more often and only opening about 45% of buttons, except where the blinds are obviously exploitable nits.
                          Bracelet Winner


                          • #14
                            I think at lower stakes (5nl, 10nl) there is an argument for opening even wider because nobody (except fish ironically) defend enough to not making ATC profitable.

                            I don't think people realize how much you need to do defend vs a min raise to not make ATC an auto-profit.


                            • #15
                              On that, I agree. I've been increasing my 3-bet percentage for the same reason: Reg/villains don't defend against them often enough. I'm just not keen in putting myself in really tricky spots (high variance), when I can fast-fold and instantly move on to a hand with a higher EV.

                              Going back to the VPIP/PFR stats mentioned above, it's pretty clear that you can win as both a LAG or a nit, or somewhere in between. There are winners at all stakes of 6max with a VPIP below 15% or over 25%. It's probably harder to make money if your VPIP is significantly higher or lower than those arbitrary numbers in the long run, but there are exceptions to every "rule". We can't really say for sure that 27/22 is too loose or 17/13 is too tight, as both can be very profitable in the right circumstances. Most players are so far from optimal that you can sometimes maximise your profit by playing like a maniac on one table while being an ubernit on another.
                              Bracelet Winner



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