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10nl Zoom 6max, tough spot ott.

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  • 10nl Zoom 6max, tough spot ott.

    Villain is 1 tabling unknown. What do we think of this turn raise? I'm blocking kings, can't think of many other value hands that villain may play like this. Maybe pockets tens? Getting tricky with aces? What do we think should be a standard line here against unknown?
    Last edited by Paddy Gar; Sun May 18, 2014, 08:16 AM.
    Bracelet Winner

  • #2
    I'm not a big fan of CCing AK OOP PF. I would rather 4bet this hand PF when we're OOP.

    OTT: Villain raises pretty large. I would tend to let go here. If we don't let go here then we will have to hope that the river goes X, X.


    • #3
      Hey Paddy,

      Take a look at this : - you isolate as Felix sugests, but .. :

      I post for 10NL as I took some shots, went horribly wrong, but still consider them for future, short term future, I am 'training' for them at the Deep stacks 5NL tables and 2NL, and find that they are not so far away (2nl from 5nl, 5nl from 10.stop, 25 i am still reading about it, as it turns out it's the stakes of mostly serious players, not pro's, but still, mostly dudes that can play.)
      I, personally, and all my posts should be perceived as learning !, think the pre-flop decisions are the ones to look for. You make a good 3x bet pre(I will not use 'standard' without the quotes), but you flat a 3x 'standard' 3bet that, at 10NL, means less than 5NL > 2NL. I've seen 3bets of drunken dudes more often than 2NL<>5NL. -- or dudes, 3betting, wannabe's for higher, that just got too eager to 'simulate' higher 3betting bluffs in position.

      So, my question here is : why flat and not 4 bet 2/3 (for value pre) of the pot to refine a read pre-flop, given the fact you have no stats ?


      PS : And you 2, friends, I should look out at the tables !
      Last edited by shoim; Sat May 17, 2014, 01:32 AM.


      • #4
        Thanks for the comments guys.

        I didn't know the villain so I didn't want to 4bet/fold. I feel I have to do that versus an unknown given positions.

        Flatting to keep his range wider. I know he shouldn't be 3betting me light utg, but he is 1 tabling so I don't think he's a reg. Therefore he could be doing this with worse for value, rather than isolate myself against the top of his value range by 4betting I felt ok playing oop with the hand.

        I might have to fold the best hand some of the time post flop, but he could also bluff my outs, or even better valuetown himself with worse Ax/Kx.

        I'm probably wrong with my line of thinking here with this particular hand but it was my feeling at the time.
        Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          Whats your plan if you dont hit an A or K postflop?


          • #6
            Pre is good. 4betting would be a pretty big mistake without dynamics / reads.

            Vs a 1 tabler i'm calling turn / calling a lot of rivers.


            • #7
              @birdayy: A call leaves just under pot sized shove left. You're calling a shove on a blank?

              @mike, probably calling on boards villain will cbet most of his range, 1 broadway, double paired, low dry boards etc. Depends on bet sizing too, plus it's 10nl, expect to get to showdown cheaply after calling once a lot of the time. I should prob c/call 2 streets as a standard but at 10nl I think it's ok to make more folds in these spots.

              If he starts potting it I can make an exploitative fold I think. If the board is super wet I'll prob c/fold too, expect villain to cbet honestly on these textures. Plus his bluffs/ worse value combos hit these board textures.
              Bracelet Winner


              • #8
                Hey guys,

                Preflop I too think is fine. If we 4b it shouldn't be with the intention of folding imo, but it's good to seed our preflop calling range with some strong hands like AK so at least flat some combos of this imo.

                I think I would call this turn raise. Obviously he can be doing this for value with KK, TT, AA/AK (the 1 pair hands are more likely to cbet the flop though imo, where as the 1 combo of KK is probably checking, and TT could certainly check this flop). He can also be getting frisky with a number of worse hands that suspect we may just be stabbing. And a rec player (1 tabling) is more likely to make those "see where I'm at" raises. This could be QQ/JJ/KQ (if he 3b's pre that light)/AT/AQ/AJ.

                On the river, I think check/calling vs. a shove is pretty close tbh. It depends on what the river card is. I would point out though that this won't always be the outcome. If the river goes check/check, we will win almost all the time. He might bet $4 after we check (I would call). And, thinking outside the box, consider that we don't have to check the river. Let's say a blank comes, an offsuit 2. If we would plan to check and call any action, a bet might be more profitable. What if we open jam the river? Obviously the TT's of the world will call and stack us, but that's irrelevant if we were planning to check/call anyway. What about QQ, AT, etc? I would think we will get hero called quite a bit because:

                1) there are a number of draws on the turn we can have, and all of them missed.
                2) he won't put us on a strong hand because we didn't shove the turn, so the shove on a blank river makes no sense in his mind.
                3) it's a line that is typically quite rare, so many villains (especially rec players) won't know what to make of it.

                So we may get called off by a number of worse hands that would have simply checked behind us on the river and shown down, gaining extra value from them.

                Just some food for thought. And again, I would only consider that line on blank rivers. If a coordinating river card comes like the 9h, I would prefer to check and fold, as that A) hits a number of his semibluffs, and B) he will check down more often out of fear that we got there and are going for a check/shove, so his river betting range will be stronger.
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                • #9
                  Thanks Dave and everyone for the input. Interesting thoughts on that line for the river. I guess the question is how much value do we miss from his bluffs when we check the river on a brick? In the moment I made the decision ott that his line made no sense for one pair hands given the board texture, and that it's pretty much pocket tens or some random hand he likes (aj/qjss/ahxh/) he's turned into a bluff. Blocking kings was a big part in my decision too. I c/called the river instantly on a brick and in my post session analysis thought it may have been total spew. Probably results orientated but looking through my database now there's enough hands from recreational players to show me that they can shove rivers light and just take the most absurd lines, both for value and as a bluff. There's something about seeing a recreational player pot it that makes me want to turbo muck without reads pretty much everything but the top of my range. I guess not everyone plays poker the same way and you just have to factor in the chances of there being spazz/ randomness some percentage of the time. So when analysing whether i made a good call I should try and determine how many bluffs villain can have when he shoves the river as opposed to better value combos, and decide whether i had the correct odds. In this example I think because it's a recreational player I should factor in some slowplayed AA, one combo of KK, 3 combos of TT, and then the bluffs. There's enough of those in his range to make it the correct call I believe.
                  Last edited by Paddy Gar; Sun May 18, 2014, 08:14 AM.
                  Bracelet Winner



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