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folded with open ended straigth

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  • folded with open ended straigth

    Should I call this shove from vilain?

  • #2
    No it was right to fold this, you're only going to hit the straight about 30% of the time and you're putting much more than 30% of the money in for this call. Also there may be times when your straight isn't good.

    It was correct to fold.

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    • #3
      if it were an open ended straight and flush draw, it would be worth calling?

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      • #4
        Be careful with A7s early levels.
        You will only flop your hand about 1% of the time, you will most likely flop a draw to your hand. This is going to give you 18% per street to make your flush and it is doubtful your opponent will give you the price to draw. With the Ace, if an Ace hits then you have some showdown value but unless you can control the pot (which OOP you can't) then you could end up paying a lot to see you are outkicked.

        When you flopped, you flopped something you didn't intend which was a straight draw.
        I hate this flop, it puts a made straight out there with broadway cards, a flush draw which you don't have a piece of and if you make your straight you are possibly behind to a better straight as well.

        I would have folded the flop here, just too much that can beat me and I can't bank on being ahead if the Jack comes (since any queen beats me) so my outs here are really 7s (3 of them), and if one of them is a diamond I am not going to be feeling good too.

        There are far better spots to take.

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        • #5
          I don't know the exact numbers for open ended straight flush draw with so many outs the rule of 2 and 4 isn't quite right, but I think there is enough equity that I'm probably going with that hand. Especially considering the A overcard, I'm assuming this is a micro stakes tournament and you'll see people doing this with top pair or other random nonsense on occasion giving you a little more equity again.

          I do agree with baud here though, there is a chance that your straight won't be good even if you don't hit. And this early in a tournament I'm probably only playing this hand in position or if there are multiple people going to the flop.
          Last edited by craig121212; Mon May 12, 2014, 02:21 PM.

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          • #6
            Hey all! First off.. fold preflop. Yes, it's an A, but it's ace/rag and I'm out of position to an early position raise. If I saw the flop, I'm going to make a standard 1/2 pot lead bet (no more, no less). When the opp shoves, I absolutely need to fold. I want to always make standard bets. Players that make abnormal bet sizes are basically turning their cards face-up to an observant opponent... something that I absolutely want to avoid. I have 8 outs to the straight, so I have a 32% chance of hitting it... however, I've only got the low end of the straight, so even if I hit, I can easily be beat. If I call, I'll have 44.5% pot equity, while IF all my outs are good, my hand is only worth 32%. This means that every time I call here, I expect to lose 12.5% of my chips. I want to be making plays where I expect to gain chips, not when I expect to lose chips on average. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)
            Super-Moderator



            6 Time Bracelet Winner


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            • #7
              Originally posted by baud2death View Post
              You will only flop your hand about 1% of the time
              This is absolutely FALSE! A player will hit the flop 1 in every 3 times.

              John (JWK24)
              Super-Moderator



              6 Time Bracelet Winner


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              • #8
                Originally posted by JWK24 View Post
                This is absolutely FALSE! A player will hit the flop 1 in every 3 times.

                John (JWK24)
                I am talking about hitting the flush on the flop.. so 3 clubs
                That is only about 1%

                If we are talking about hitting something like an Ace or a 7 or a draw then yes, its 30%

                Unlike a set where your made hand appears right there on the flop, since you are most likely aiming for a draw, you have to pay for another card to get your result. This leads to a drawing mentality that needs the right pot odds to make sense.

                Sorry if you misunderstood my post, I was talking about flopping a made hand with A7s rather than flopping a draw to a made hand.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by baud2death View Post
                  I was talking about flopping a made hand with A7s rather than flopping a draw to a made hand.
                  If I flop an A or a 7, I also have a made hand... which is why it's about 1 in 3.

                  John (JWK24)
                  Super-Moderator



                  6 Time Bracelet Winner


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                  • #10
                    Yeah, perhaps my goals are too high where I am looking for a cooler every hand!

                    I don't like flopping a hand where I am outkicked and have to limp along to showdown hoping to be best.
                    I want to be dominating so whilst my choice of words saying "a made hand" was poor in the above comments, I should have said "a made hand I can get paid on"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by baud2death View Post
                      I don't like flopping a hand where I am outkicked
                      Do you only play AK?

                      A7s is certainly a trouble hand, but being suited makes it playable. (The offsuit version is total trash). You'll flop a pair about a third of the time (although top pair with a weak kicker, or middle pair with top kicker, isn't something you want to play for stacks with) but if you have a flush draw, it's always the nut flush draw and you always have an overcard too, so you can be aggressive with that if you desire. (12 outs is a monster draw if villain just has one pair!)

                      With just an OESD + overcard on a board like this, I'd be more cautious, especially as the villain opened in early position, where he'll have some better aces, or even AA. It's gonna be impossible to get paid if you bink the turn because there will be a 4-liner on the board. Bet-folding is fine (you can get AK/AQ to fold nearly always), but you have to fold when villain shoves like this. He might be over-protecting something like JJ, against which you have decent equity, but it's not worth risking your tourney life at this price.
                      Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Mon May 12, 2014, 07:49 PM.
                      Bracelet Winner

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                      • #12
                        Of course not
                        But when I play hands with an Ace in them other than AJ-AK my plan is not to flop an ace and scoop a big pot. If I don't manage to hit my flush (and thats the often reason ill be in a hand with Ax), two pair or trips, I am looking to play a small pot and only get value out of hands that are obviously scared of the Ace. 2 streets of value typically.

                        I think hands like A7 have a lot of value to players that can judge well post-flop as to how their Ace is, for those that can't (and I would likely say there are a lot, myself included a lot of the time) then whilst it is a good idea to learn how to judge this, the simpler solution is to avoid these situations.

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                        • #13
                          Cool baud. I agree with that. ^^^
                          Bracelet Winner

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