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-7,8 $ loss in 4 hands : Bad Play or Bad Beat ?

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  • -7,8 $ loss in 4 hands : Bad Play or Bad Beat ?

    Hey guys, Those 4 hands were the big part of my loss today (90 %). I marked these hands as bad beats - all of them .What are your thoughts on this ? 1 Hand Villain 7 - unknown 2 Hand Villain 3 - unknown 3 hand - is a clear fold for the villain(time banked 2 minutes on the river before calling) - i guess this line doesn't work in 2 NL I was 90 % sure he has an overpair a set less likely givin'his pot bets on flop and turn on a dry board 4 Hand standard KK vs AA (Hero in BB , Villain in CO) Gl at the tables Dan

  • #2
    On the 1 st hand . That flop you can discount your ace as playable. I know it's a 3 bet pot but at this level you just don't know. After that hand , you've completely tilted. AK is a drawing hand . Play it as such .

    Comment


    • #3
      Hand 1 not a bad beat at all, when you got your money in you were already behind. You might consider it to be a bit donkfish of your opponent to be gambling with a straight draw but even then, it was vs your c-bet bluff so neither of you made your hand. A bit of a cooler but no bad beat here.

      Hand 2 in cash AK is not as valuable and looks like you were over-evaluating it here as well as the prior hand. Again not a bad beat, you had nothing and your opponent had a pair.

      Hand 3 you were bluffing and got caught, no bad beat here either


      I hate to say it but likely a bit of bad play
      Hand 1 - You played fine, c-bet your AK and hit your ace on the turn but unlucky that your opponent hit his straight. I am unsure if your discipline is good here but a fold is possible, but understandable if you wanted to fight for TPTK
      Hand 2 - You over-valued your AK preflop and then WAY over-valued it going forward getting yourself stuck beind a simple pair of fish hooks
      Hand 3 - You were bluffing with possible diamond outs but got caught by a better hand

      I think your leak might be over-valuing hands that can draw to better. Cash is a patience game, why rush action where you are behind often and why not focus on action where you are ahead often.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hand 3 imo is a clear mistake

        When Villain2 donk bets the river, he is hardly ever folding.
        Had he checked then you would have better chance to make it work.

        Comment


        • #5
          i don' t think all are mistakes , the only mistake i can see here is in hand 1 where i should check the turn for pot control and to induce. a bluff on the river

          2 hand i didn't overvalued AKs in position here at all i don't want to play it multiway that is why i 4 bet to isolate the fish and was going to fold to a 5 bet, on the flop the donk bet all in doesnt seem to be a set , it is more likely a draw or a pair =a range which is at most fliping with my 2 overpairs, nut flush and gutshot draw

          3 hand is a 80% fold for a regular in villains position, and the small donk bet on the river is more of a blocking bet that tells me he is not willing to pay more (actually he did after a time bank of 2 min) he way behind my perceived range( many combinations of 2 pairs, sets and draws on the turn) villain hero called which from my humbke opinion is not a + EV call , guess i was overvaluing vilains skills

          Comment


          • #6
            And 2 more things to add, i can't see the hands know writing from the phone , for the hand 1 i guess i was in the blinds and for the 3 hand it is not 100 % bluff there is a flush draw and an open ended straight draw with 30 % equity on the turn adding that to the fold equity which should be at least 50 % i assume makes this hand a + EV one i think i have to make some calculation for this but my instinct is telling me it is long term profit running this hand more times but again i guess i should not apply it against unknown players to me

            Comment


            • #7
              To lose that much in such a short time smacks of tilt. Sorry, but it sounds like you're still tilting. Let it go and bet for value, value ,value. People bluff at higher limits because they all know how to play their holecards. Bluffing is the only way they can get any money off of each other.

              Comment


              • #8
                I assure you i am not tilting lol i want to learn and to see your view about the hands and to catch maybe something i didnt think of.
                I played 3.5 hyper turbo with bigger variance having 30 buyins losing streak (and i mean 30*3.5 loss in one day )and still winning overall , -7,8 $ is not tilting for me
                I am more than open to find out why those hands are a bad play

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by s3n_dan View Post
                  I assure you i am not tilting lol i want to learn and to see your view about the hands and to catch maybe something i didnt think of.
                  I played 3.5 hyper turbo with bigger variance having 30 buyins losing streak (and i mean 30*3.5 loss in one day )and still winning overall , -7,8 $ is not tilting for me
                  I am more than open to find out why those hands are a bad play
                  First step in learning is taking on board the advice.
                  Myself and a couple of others have answered your question "was this bad luck or bad play" with "bad play" and you are disagreeing with us.

                  Hand 2, AK is often over-valued in cash as people think its the monster it is in tournaments. When you hit a flop with AK and no Ace or King, you are drawing. Looking at the sums, the dead-money help you more here than I first realized and there are definite pot odds here even just with the flush as your only outs.. that 2nd guy in the pot helped tilt the odds.

                  The point remains that AK isn't the monster people think it is and its very easy to get stuck drawing to your hand but being behind. What if he didn't get it in on the flop and it was slow played for each street? Could you have kept in when your odds kept getting smaller and smaller?

                  AK needs to hit the flop just right and if it doesn't hit an A/K then you are drawing.. Thats why its such a hard hand for people to play, just as some people can't release Kings when they get action from an Ace on the flop.

                  Bottom line.. i would recommend opening your mind a little more when asking for advice. The advice could be wrong or too nitty for your play style but please don't ask for advice and then come out and defend yourself as if we are attacking you...which we aren't.

                  EDIT : Re-reading my analysis, I apologize if i came across as too pushy as I might have got your back up about them. Please take onboard any advice you ask for in here, I did and still do and it helps me a lot
                  Last edited by baud2death; Thu May 08, 2014, 04:13 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In tournaments win rates are calculated differently than in cash . You lost , unless i'm mistaken, 400bb
                    over 4 hands. Now i'm going to do some maths. EEK! We want to know your win rate in terms of Big Blinds won over 100 hands. I want to convert your -400bb/4 hands into a cash winrate. 4 x 25 = 100. So we have our 100 hands. -400 x 25 = -10000 So we have - 10000 bb/ 100 hands . This calculation is extreme but it gives you an idea.
                    If you throw money away in cash like it's an MTT buy in, you're going broke hyper turbo quick style.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I am more prone to fold AK early in a tournament and SNG than in a cash game. Here i have positional advantage where people think i want to steal and will 3 bet lighter but this ridiculos 3 bet of 10 cents is giving to much odds to players in blinds and i cannot call i chose to 4 bet planning to fold on a 5 bet and giving the chance to players to call with worst hands OOP , i cannot understand in what place i overvalued this hand? I dont want to defend myself i just want to find out arguments which prove me wrong

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The small 3 bet is actually pricing you in for a small price. Call and see a small pot. If you hit then bingo. I don't know if you know a good tournament strategy , playing such fast games. When we have 100 bb in our stack, High cards lose value. Speculative cards gain value.
                        Once we get to 50 bb things flip. Speculative hands lose value and high cards are top dog.
                        Cash,really, is no different. When we have 50 bb I want to get my chips in preflop with AK. 100bb , not so much. Especially playing zoom.In zoom, for 100 bb, KK minimum is what I'm shoving/ calling preflop .
                        Last edited by awmm83; Thu May 08, 2014, 05:07 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by awmm83 View Post
                          In tournaments win rates are calculated differently than in cash . You lost , unless i'm mistaken, 400bb
                          over 4 hands. Now i'm going to do some maths. EEK! We want to know your win rate in terms of Big Blinds won over 100 hands. I want to convert your -400bb/4 hands into a cash winrate. 4 x 25 = 100. So we have our 100 hands. -400 x 25 = -10000 So we have - 10000 bb/ 100 hands . This calculation is extreme but it gives you an idea.
                          If you throw money away in cash like it's an MTT buy in, you're going broke hyper turbo quick style.
                          After this hands my winrate droped to 9.x / 100 dont remember exactly , from a tiny sample of 6000 hands .I just started to build my bankrol with this games

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hand 1: I would elect for a check/fold OTF tbh.
                            Hand 2: Standard, never folding.
                            Hand 3: I'm not defending with Q7s vs a SB open. Fold PF.

                            As played, the call OTF isn't great but it's ok I guess. OTT the villain bets pot again. I'd be worried now. OTT this is not a good raise. If you're going to raise the turn you need to shove here. This way we have some fold equity. Having said that, we're getting 2:1 and we potentially have 15 outs as long as our diamonds are clean. JUST CALL! OTR you have zero fold equity. Note: DON'T BLUFF AT MICRO STAKES.
                            Last edited by dirt eh; Fri May 09, 2014, 01:43 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dirt eh View Post
                              Hand 1: I would elect for a check/fold OTF tbh.
                              Hand 2: Standard, never folding.
                              Hand 3: I'm not defending with Q7s vs a SB open. Fold PF.

                              As played, the call OTF isn't great but it's ok I guess. OTT the villain bets pot again. I'd be worried now. OTT this is not a good raise. If you're going to raise the turn you need to shove here. This way we have some fold equity. Having said that, we're getting 2:1 and we potentially have 15 outs as long as our diamonds are clean. JUST CALL! OTR you have zero fold equity. Note: DON'T BLUFF AT MICRO STAKES.
                              Thanx for your answers Dirt Eh, you're probably right about 1 hand - Check folding was better.
                              in 3 hand i play wider vs SB because i have position Q7s has some playability postflop against a stealing range (it also depends on the villain playing in SB)

                              OTT I raise small(2,x) because i think it has the same fold equity as all in does, i was going to give up on the river ,but villain's small bet (after 2 pot bets ) somehow convinced me he was giving up and i complete the bluff shoving. It was by no means villain's small bet on the river to induce my shove .
                              Why i chose raising the turn instead of calling ? Because Calling was worse, in this case I only hope to hit the river with 30 % equity which is - EV , there is no fold equity .You cand find below what i mean when i get to the river:

                              EV Raise Turn = 30 % * 4,28 $ - 70% * 4,28 $ + Fold Equity = -1,712 $ + 3,42$ * 55 % = 0,169$ > 0
                              EV Call Turn = -1,712$

                              So villain has to fold at least 55 % of the time on the river for this line to be profitable

                              Comment

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