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10NL KK turn re-raise shove vs Unknown

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  • 10NL KK turn re-raise shove vs Unknown

    Not really much to say here. Against an unknown, yay or nay to calling the turn shove? Only hands that made any sort of sense were flopped or turned sets. No two pair made sense unless he is pretty spewy. I didn't think he had me beat pre either of course.

  • #2
    Why can't he have JT of hearts here? I can't give the villains enough combos of hands to make this call +EV. I think this is a fold!

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    • #3
      i think he can have j10 suited here. You're 3bet sizing was smaller than 3x his raise, might lead villain to call oop with a wider range.

      We're assuming guy isn't a reg here right? If that's the case def give him credit for more combos here.
      Bracelet Winner

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      • #4
        HH Bhoy Legend . Why did you bet half on the flop and then higher on the turn? Strange line . I think you committed yourself with that bet size. Pot size on the 3 bet would have also been optimal . To use a football analogy , don't let them sign a bargain like Kris Commons, charge the pants off them

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        • #5
          I like checking the turn, whilst we are ahead of so much here, a bit of pot control would make sense. Also, it gives us a great idea of where we are since our opponent is OOP, he will have to show what equity he has by his river bet.

          But for the answer to your question, no, i wouldnt call - unless i have a hand better than a pair, im not calling a check-raise. If its a bluff, bravo and give him a medal, otherwise its MOST of the time better than a pair and not worth it.

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          • #6
            I would call

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            • #7
              nay

              I'm folding

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              • #8
                Call.

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                • #9
                  Gosh - awkward spot bhoy


                  Think I remember reading in your 2014 thread that one of your pet peeves is when people leave comments under your hands in HA, but don't ever get around to answering the specific question you've asked - will have to make a note to remember not to talk on and on, and wind up forgetting to choose 'call or fold'


                  So many thoughts ... guess the thing I'm not sure about is if the villain's shoving because he turned a combo draw and wouldn't mind a fold in the event that he's behind? Or if he's shoving because he noticed the bets were getting bigger and thinks there's a decent chance he'll get a call?

                  Anybody else find it more common for loose passives to mini-reraise with big hands rather than shove - especially when the board isn't super-wet? And the bets weren't huge ...

                  Think I've had some loose aggros overbet shove turns like this with hands like Jh Ah and Jh Qh?


                  Gosh ... kind of a big amount to call - and that'd be awful to be up against a set, or even 2pr. But there's also a fair amount of $ in the middle already, so ... maybe this is one of those spots that's 0EV in the long-run?


                  In which case, I'd probably call, just to see what the villain had But I think a fold would be good too

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                  • #10
                    Unknown range here...hmm, 1010/JJ/J10suited/AJsuited/AQ suited? If you give him 55/33 it's even worse.

                    Against the big draws our equity is great ott. against the other combos we're pretty much dead. I think it's something like 2.5/1 on the call. Our equity versus above range, taking out the j10 combos and adding in maybe 7h8h is 26% so i'm folding.

                    My calculations could be wrong there maybe someone can help with that?

                    We have Kh too so less flush combos here, KQ and KJ not possible, including qhjh it's 30%. That's IF we don't include 55/33/j10suited.

                    I doubt we can really think too much into the whole button vs co dynamics either as he's unknown and you play these stakes a lot right? against a reg you could be barrelling with tons of semi bluffs here, but against an unknown your line looks really really strong. You have some set combos in your range too, as well as overpairs.

                    Unknown I think this is a standard bet fold.
                    Last edited by Paddy Gar; Wed May 07, 2014, 10:46 PM.
                    Bracelet Winner

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paddy Gar View Post
                      My calculations could be wrong there maybe someone can help with that?
                      I used the same ones Except I used a weighted average ...

                      Guess maybe the question really turns on which hands one thinks are more likely for the average unknown to be overbet shoving (as opposed to just re-raising)?


                      Really hard to know without reads

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dirt eh View Post
                        Why can't he have JT of hearts here?
                        He can have it. Never said he couldn't. I just think that as we were both unknown to each other that he may not call with that OOP pre-flop hoping for a 'miracle' flop. Unless he thinks I am 3betting light.
                        Originally posted by awmm83 View Post
                        HH Bhoy Legend . Why did you bet half on the flop and then higher on the turn? Strange line . I think you committed yourself with that bet size. Pot size on the 3 bet would have also been optimal .
                        If I was OOP then I would have been potting it. IP I actually want him to call rather than charging him a premium to continue. I don't want to make the penalty so harsh that he can't continue to play Michael Ball anymore and eventually have to go into liquidation. On the flop, I haven't a notion what he is calling with, how much heat he can withstand. Once he calls flop I can make some guesstimates that he is maybe calling with Suited/Connected hands and some pairs that aren't quite ready to give up. As he has shown an interest, and I have KK and love to play huge pots, I'm setting up stacks for the river.
                        Originally posted by Paddy Gar View Post
                        i think he can have j10 suited here. You're 3bet sizing was smaller than 3x his raise, might lead villain to call oop with a wider range. We're assuming guy isn't a reg here right? If that's the case def give him credit for more combos here.
                        We're making an assumption that he is a typical 10NL player ie. he's probably better than a 2NL player but far from the finished article. 10NL players are capable of extreme nittiness and absolute spew/
                        Originally posted by Low Rated View Post
                        I would call
                        Noted!
                        Originally posted by rkleefstra View Post
                        nay I'm folding
                        Fair enough.
                        Originally posted by birdayy View Post
                        Call.
                        I kind of had an inkling you would say that and I appreciate the feedbackumbup:
                        Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                        Gosh - awkward spot bhoy Think I remember reading in your 2014 thread that one of your pet peeves is when people leave comments under your hands in HA, but don't ever get around to answering the specific question you've asked - will have to make a note to remember not to talk on and on, and wind up forgetting to choose 'call or fold' So many thoughts ... guess the thing I'm not sure about is if the villain's shoving because he turned a combo draw and wouldn't mind a fold in the event that he's behind? Or if he's shoving because he noticed the bets were getting bigger and thinks there's a decent chance he'll get a call? Anybody else find it more common for loose passives to mini-reraise with big hands rather than shove - especially when the board isn't super-wet? And the bets weren't huge ... Think I've had some loose aggros overbet shove turns like this with hands like Jh Ah and Jh Qh? Gosh ... kind of a big amount to call - and that'd be awful to be up against a set, or even 2pr. But there's also a fair amount of $ in the middle already, so ... maybe this is one of those spots that's 0EV in the long-run? In which case, I'd probably call, just to see what the villain had But I think a fold would be good too
                        Sam, I did mention that I hated not having my questions answered in a HA thread, but that was when I posted specific questions on my line and the HA amounted to how the analyser would have played it. That's great, but I kind of felt my line was ok, if not optimal and had wanted info on that and was ignored. C'est la vie. I do agree though that I am noticing more shove happy play from players, even those who appear LP according to HUD stats. Just one final point to anyone who wants to fold, HUDs are eliminated here, and the format is the same ie. Zoom. You get this set-up three hands in a row, each time against an unknown, are you folding every time because the guy is unknown? Far fetched scenario maybe, but remember Sandtraps thread where the got dealt the same two value cards something like 7 times in a row? It happens.

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                        • #13
                          Yeah I'm still folding everytime.

                          If there's a decent chance of spazz in the general player pool this changes the decision, I just don't see how many spazz combos he has that calls the flop and shoves turn that doesnt have decent equity against us. Some smaller pocket pairs he's turning into a bluff?

                          Is we assume he's unknown and won't call oop with j10suited here, standard range of 1010/JJ/AQ/AQs/AJ suited maybe? Is that reasonable?

                          I don't have the sample on the pool that you do bhoy, just giving my opinion that i would fold.
                          Bracelet Winner

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                          • #14
                            I doubt folding or calling is a massive mistake vs an unknown as you have no idea what types of hands his shipping you might be drawing to two outs every time he ships or you might have him well and truly crushed or you could be flipping vs JJ TT and QQ.

                            Even if he has all broadway hearts and he ships the ones with a pair/2nd pair your still not a favourite vs his range so i would probably just fold myself and that turn card dont look like a good turn to be doing any bluff shoving to me all it did was impoved JJ JTs thats the perfect turn for him when he is *****d to get you to make the mistake of thinking he does have draws when maybe he never does.

                            All i would be thinking about is does he shove worse for value to call and i dont know so i just fold, how does everyone play there QQ in CO here vs an unknown on the same run out?

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                            • #15
                              The standard is to ship queens pre at 10nl in this spot surely, so i wouldn't include it here. Who knows though, if he's calling with queens oop here it would be to ship any non a/k flop and keep some bluffs in I guess.
                              Bracelet Winner

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