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Pocket Qs on a Loose/Aggresive board

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  • Pocket Qs on a Loose/Aggresive board

    Prelim note, This table was loose and aggressive. Myself being one of the most aggressive. So I have Qs and the villain has Kc Js. He raises and I elect to call so as to not scare him away to early on. Flop is K 3 Q, which is perfect because I suspect that he has Kx. So I decide to slow play and check. He rasies 2/3 pot. I call. The flop is a 6. I raise 3/5 pot to give a feel that maybe I had a Qx and just hit my x. He calls. River is another 6. Here I elect to 4/5 pot bet. I was wanting to make it look like my Q had a second pair to go along with it. Luckily he calls and I walk away with some nice change. My questions are, could I have gotten more value from this hand and how else would you have played it to get more value?

  • #2
    3-bet pre. If you have an aggressive image then villain is more likely to call your raise with a worse hand. The hand plays out totally differently if you take the initiative pre-flop. Indeed you probably win villain's entire stack.

    Since you just called, the best line is to check-call the flop, check-raise the turn, shove the river.

    Leading out on the turn makes hardly any sense, since you remove villain's chance to bluff.
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    • #3
      I disagree with check/calling the flop, I would check/raise all the time here. There are a number of hands villain will give us flop action with, draws and top pair combos. The turn card if scary may slow our action down, and c/r turn looks so much stronger than c/r flop. Waiting until the turn is likely to get us less total action, not more.

      Definitely we should 3b preflop, and play more aggressively post flop, it's a shame not to get stacks in here but I think when we flop a set and make a boat when villain makes a K high flush and we don't get his stack, it's apparent that we didn't do something right... in this case failing to get any money in the pot both preflop and on the flop.

      When you have a hand that wants to play a big pot, consider taking actions that will serve to grow the pot (betting and raising) not actions that keep the pot small (checking and calling).
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      • #4
        Dave and Arty, thanks for looking into my post.

        I agree with both of you on being more aggressive. Unfortunately whenever I had 3-bet previously (with weaker holding than Qs) the opponents would usually fold. I don't like slow playing in general but with this hand I felt it was the only way to see any street of value.

        And I agree with you both, I really wanted to take the villains entire chip stack but prior to this I had taken two other villains entire stacks. Knowing this, do you think it would have been more beneficial to 3bet pre flop and then c/r the turn and river?

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        • #5
          If I 3-bet pre, I just bet-bet-bet post-flop. Check-raising just looks too strong, whereas betting disguises your hand somewhat, while also removing villain's ability to take free cards if he so desires.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by OvidioReyna View Post
            I agree with both of you on being more aggressive. Unfortunately whenever I had 3-bet previously (with weaker holding than Qs) the opponents would usually fold.
            This is usually due to one of 3 things (or some combo of):

            1) Your opponents are playing very tight vs. 3B's (in general or vs. you specifically)

            2) You are only 3-betting for value (premiums) and the opponents are on to you.

            3) Your opponents are stealing frequently and thus you're catching them without a hand.

            In all cases the best way to adjust is to increase your 3b frequency to include some lite hands and bluffs, not to slow play your big pocket pairs which are vulnerable. We might flat some spots pre with a big hand, but in general I would uptick the 3b's until they fight back.
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            • #7
              Arty,

              I hear ya. I think my greatest concern with the bet-bet-bet strategy post flop is that their holdings will be better than mine. Part of that is just that I haven't become completely adjusted with acceptable loses and I'm still, at times married, to my hands. But I definitely see the benefits of the bet-bet-bet strategy on the cash tables more than I see my opponents taking my stack.

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              • #8
                Dave,

                You're spot on. I wasn't using 3-betting at all unless I had premium hands. I've trying to apply your suggestions and it seems to be working really well. I will have to be aware of myself and not over play it. But I can definitely see the benefits of 3-betting more often.

                I do have a question. I've noticed this a couple times when playing some marginal hands that when I 3-bet an opponent they may 4-bet me for three times what I raised them, which for my stacks is about $1.50 when they 4-bet me. MY novice instinct tells me to go instaraise all in (which I have done and lost both times I did it). But my question is when an opponent 4-bets me, what should my play be?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by OvidioReyna View Post
                  But my question is when an opponent 4-bets me, what should my play be?
                  This really depends on stack sizes, reads and the positions you are in. (A 4-bet by UTG vs MP is much stronger than a 4-bet by the SB vs BB).
                  As a default, you should fold to 4-bets if you have anything worse than QQ or AK, unless the pot is laying an incredibly good price on a shove (e.g. you're playing against a bad short-stack that will be happy to stack off 77 or AJ). Most of the time, if you get 100bb stacks in with AQ, JJ, AJs etc, you're going to be crushed by KK+/AK. In short, until you know for sure that a villain's stack off range is pretty wide, give him/her credit for a true monster if he/she 4-bets.
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