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Set over set in the blinds

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  • Set over set in the blinds

    How often should I be folding bottom set or middle set in zoom poker? Like here is an obvious case that I'm behind but I hear time and time again that set over set happens "so little to worry about". Everyone else going broke here? Or is the board so dry and the aggression so high that you're letting it go? Assume a readless villian (but this particular one had laggy stats over a small hand sample <100 hands / mid 20s vp and pfr)

  • #2
    Set over set happens so infrequently

    Yes, Zoom attracts a lot of "i fold until i get AA then shove" but plenty of people are set-mining, plenty of people want to give AQ a go, they arent always waiting for AK and there are still some rag hands that come in as well. A lot of people just treat it like a ring game and will not always go at it with the nuts, an overpair is strong hand to put your opponent on here like AA/KK or perhaps even KQ/AQ.

    I am never not going at this pot, especially in a cash game.
    On this flop you are only behind to the QQ/33, the turn only introduces TT and the river is 77.
    Having a hand where you hand only reduces by -1 from the nuts each street is very strong and if you are behind to a cooler or someone gets lucky and catches, then thats your bad beat for the day but you are ahead A LOT more than you are behind in this spot, even with Zoom.

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    • #3
      See, here's the thing. I've played about 60-70k (not that high, but high enough to notice some trends) hands in 2nl zoom and I don't think I've ever had someone try to let me see a flop for cheap when they're carrying AA/KK, especially when they know that I'm more likely to peel wider because it's BvB. KQ/AQ never play this aggro - they go for easier value. The only hand I was hoping for was something like Q3 when I made the crying call on the river, and even that's hopeful. Surely there's some arguments for folding here, even if it's located in his stack size (600BBish)? Thanks for the response! umbup: Edit: just booted up some more games, less than 15 hands in and I just went all in with 222 against 999. Ridiculous... I need the advice of a 2nl veteran; perhaps it's worth folding out low PPs even in 6max games in todays state of the game. Too much set mining. Too much reverse implied odds with the bottom end.
      Last edited by Swagneto; Fri Apr 25, 2014, 01:02 PM.

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      • #4
        Fair enough

        Could have been any Queen really as well, didn't have to be two pair
        QJ is possible, maybe even a combo draws but even with it being Zoom im not fearing set vs set.

        If i am thinking that I am up against set vs set each time then i am only playing TT/JJ for set mining on zoom, and thats just unfeasible

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        • #5
          We cant fold here IMO once we hit the set.

          2NL villains will often go broke with AQ/KQ here too.

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          • #6
            It's blind vs blind and you flopped a set on a board with a flush draw. Get it in on the flop, while you're losing to 3 combos of 33 (QQ seems very unlikely given pre-flop action) and crushing tons.
            Bracelet Winner

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            • #7
              Originally posted by baud2death View Post
              Fair enough

              Could have been any Queen really as well, didn't have to be two pair
              QJ is possible, maybe even a combo draws but even with it being Zoom im not fearing set vs set.

              If i am thinking that I am up against set vs set each time then i am only playing TT/JJ for set mining on zoom, and thats just unfeasible
              Do you play 2nl often? These days it's mostly all TAGs. There's very little spew and if it is - it's from short stacks (i.e. the people who aren't topping up). Set over set is extremely frequent when looking at pots that end up with deep stacked shoves. Stacks rarely go in unless it's a cooler. My analysis is that I want to be on the right side of coolers (much like I learnt the hard way that nobody jams 100BB without AA or KK anymore).

              Zoom makes it more probable that it's set vs. set. This is just one man's opinion of course, but I definitely think I'll have to reconsider playing anything below 77

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Swagneto View Post
                Do you play 2nl often?.... There's very little spew and if it is....
                I don't know if I can agree with this statement. There is still a tonne of spew (Including some of my own) at 2NL these days.

                I've played 64k+ at 2NL this year.

                Originally posted by Swagneto View Post
                (much like I learnt the hard way that nobody jams 100BB without AA or KK anymore).
                This isn't true either. Plenty of people go in with random crap and or legit hands. Just looked through my hand histories and there are lots of broadway hands, and random unpaired hands as well as JJ+ and AK.
                Last edited by bhoylegend; Fri Apr 25, 2014, 04:43 PM.

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                • #9
                  If that is the case... Not sure I would want to touch zoom any more, that is shocking lol

                  Guess that's what happens when you turn poker into a slot machine, only way you can get paid off is to hit the absolute nuts and hope you got lucky enough to a) be in a hand with someone who caught a piece of it b) not able to see you have it

                  In suppose if it's zoom that takes a lot of folding but you would get it eventually

                  With zoom, anytime I have own big pots it's usually preflop with AA vs KK or AK or QQ... Or with a flopped nut flush, set or flopped straight

                  If you believe your opponents really are this tight then I would never set mine with anything less than raising pairs because you will always fear a lower set

                  I can see people shipping it in with less really even with Zoom and if I am wrong then it's not poker it's bingo


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                  • #10
                    Hmm, perhaps I should rephrase.

                    After browsing through my hand histories I rarely see people 4bet (not all in) with anything other than KK and AA.

                    As for the spew statement, there's a lot less than there used to be. All I'm saying is that 100BB stacks rarely spew, and there's a tonne of players buying in without that. But you probably have played more hands than me all the same, so I won't argue!

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                    • #11
                      I have tilt issues with Zoom/Cash right now so don't take my words as gospel lol

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
                        It's blind vs blind and you flopped a set on a board with a flush draw. Get it in on the flop, while you're losing to 3 combos of 33 (QQ seems very unlikely given pre-flop action) and crushing tons.
                        I totally agree!umbup: John (JWK24)
                        Super-Moderator



                        6 Time Bracelet Winner


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                        • #13
                          I would have gone broke here either on the flop or turn tbh. Not only do 2NL randoms tend to overvalue strong 1 pair hands, but the Q is not the suit of the flush draw, so he can have a number of top pair+FD combos in his range as well. I do think there are clear situations that arise where we can get away from bottom set, but this isn't one of them imo.

                          As for 2nl zoom being a TAG fest, idk, it sure wasn't a couple months ago. I observed it for like 20 min just to see what the play was like. Obv only the biggest pots make it to the observation table, but there were a lot of them where someone got all in with top pair/no kicker or a wild bluff, they weren't all coolers.
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                          • #14
                            Ok, not buying the tagfest/no spew assessment.

                            I just opened up 2nl zoom 6m observation, these were literally the first 3 hands I saw.

                            Hand 1: player stacks off TPTK
                            Hand 2: player defends the BB with 94o
                            Hand 3: player loses his mind with AJ


                            PokerStars Hand #115284726265: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:09:02 CT [2014/04/25 11:09:02 ET]
                            Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
                            Seat 1: akinoshima ($2.01 in chips)
                            Seat 2: norte191 ($4.13 in chips)
                            Seat 3: Rusel90 ($3.43 in chips)
                            Seat 4: samruso ($2.92 in chips)
                            Seat 5: Andreazz73 ($1.91 in chips)
                            Seat 6: KYNGFYPANDA ($2 in chips)
                            norte191: posts small blind $0.01
                            Rusel90: posts big blind $0.02
                            *** HOLE CARDS ***
                            samruso: raises $0.04 to $0.06
                            Andreazz73: calls $0.06
                            KYNGFYPANDA: folds
                            akinoshima: calls $0.06
                            norte191: folds
                            Rusel90: folds
                            *** FLOP *** [4h 6d Qs]
                            samruso: bets $0.14
                            Andreazz73: calls $0.14
                            akinoshima: folds
                            *** TURN *** [4h 6d Qs] [2s]
                            samruso: bets $0.32
                            Andreazz73: raises $0.42 to $0.74
                            samruso: raises $1.98 to $2.72 and is all-in
                            Andreazz73: calls $0.97 and is all-in
                            Uncalled bet ($1.01) returned to samruso
                            *** RIVER *** [4h 6d Qs 2s] [9c]
                            *** SHOW DOWN ***
                            samruso: shows [Ac Qd] (a pair of Queens)
                            Andreazz73: shows [4c 4s] (three of a kind, Fours)
                            Andreazz73 collected $3.77 from pot



                            PokerStars Hand #115284745499: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:09:31 CT [2014/04/25 11:09:31 ET]
                            Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
                            Seat 1: Gyro$ Pit4 ($2.45 in chips)
                            Seat 2: marjoryaaa ($2.42 in chips)
                            Seat 3: korrida66 ($2 in chips)
                            Seat 4: boksiukas ($4.19 in chips)
                            Seat 5: drk55 ($2.36 in chips)
                            Seat 6: Maxi_Kiselev ($2.15 in chips)
                            marjoryaaa: posts small blind $0.01
                            korrida66: posts big blind $0.02
                            *** HOLE CARDS ***
                            boksiukas: folds
                            drk55: folds
                            Maxi_Kiselev: folds
                            Gyro$ Pit4: folds
                            marjoryaaa: raises $0.04 to $0.06
                            korrida66: calls $0.04
                            *** FLOP *** [8h 4d Td]
                            marjoryaaa: bets $0.12
                            korrida66: calls $0.12
                            *** TURN *** [8h 4d Td] [4s]
                            marjoryaaa: bets $0.35
                            korrida66: calls $0.35
                            *** RIVER *** [8h 4d Td 4s] [9c]
                            marjoryaaa: bets $1.02
                            korrida66: raises $0.45 to $1.47 and is all-in
                            marjoryaaa: calls $0.45
                            *** SHOW DOWN ***
                            korrida66: shows [9s 4h] (a full house, Fours full of Nines)
                            marjoryaaa: mucks hand
                            korrida66 collected $3.86 from pot
                            *** SUMMARY ***
                            Total pot $4 | Rake $0.14
                            Board [8h 4d Td 4s 9c]
                            Seat 1: Gyro$ Pit4 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                            Seat 2: marjoryaaa (small blind) mucked
                            Seat 3: korrida66 (big blind) showed [9s 4h] and won ($3.86) with a full house, Fours full of Nines
                            Seat 4: boksiukas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                            Seat 5: drk55 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                            Seat 6: Maxi_Kiselev folded before Flop (didn't bet)


                            PokerStars Hand #115284767993: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:10:05 CT [2014/04/25 11:10:05 ET]
                            Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
                            Seat 1: Maxi_Kiselev ($2.69 in chips)
                            Seat 2: v7362986 ($1.92 in chips)
                            Seat 3: Gyro$ Pit4 ($2.04 in chips)
                            Seat 4: zoobr94 ($5.22 in chips)
                            Seat 5: Santaschacki ($1.60 in chips)
                            Seat 6: therookie275 ($1.96 in chips)
                            v7362986: posts small blind $0.01
                            Gyro$ Pit4: posts big blind $0.02
                            *** HOLE CARDS ***
                            zoobr94: folds
                            Santaschacki: raises $0.06 to $0.08
                            therookie275: calls $0.08
                            Maxi_Kiselev: folds
                            v7362986: folds
                            Gyro$ Pit4: calls $0.06
                            *** FLOP *** [7c Js 9c]
                            Gyro$ Pit4: checks
                            Santaschacki: bets $0.08
                            therookie275: raises $0.08 to $0.16
                            Gyro$ Pit4: calls $0.16
                            Santaschacki: calls $0.08
                            *** TURN *** [7c Js 9c] [6c]
                            Gyro$ Pit4: checks
                            Santaschacki: checks
                            therookie275: checks
                            *** RIVER *** [7c Js 9c 6c] [Ks]
                            Gyro$ Pit4: checks
                            Santaschacki: bets $0.12
                            therookie275: raises $0.64 to $0.76
                            Gyro$ Pit4: folds
                            Santaschacki: raises $0.60 to $1.36 and is all-in
                            therookie275: calls $0.60
                            *** SHOW DOWN ***
                            Santaschacki: shows [Qc Ac] (a flush, Ace high)
                            therookie275: shows [Jd As] (a pair of Jacks)
                            Santaschacki collected $3.33 from pot
                            *** SUMMARY ***
                            Total pot $3.45 | Rake $0.12
                            Board [7c Js 9c 6c Ks]
                            Seat 1: Maxi_Kiselev (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                            Seat 2: v7362986 (small blind) folded before Flop
                            Seat 3: Gyro$ Pit4 (big blind) folded on the River
                            Seat 4: zoobr94 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                            Seat 5: Santaschacki showed [Qc Ac] and won ($3.33) with a flush, Ace high
                            Seat 6: therookie275 showed [Jd As] and lost with a pair of Jacks
                            Last edited by TheLangolier; Fri Apr 25, 2014, 06:19 PM.
                            Head Live Trainer
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
                              Ok, not buying the tagfest/no spew assessment.

                              I just opened up 2nl zoom 6m observation, these were literally the first 3 hands I saw.

                              Hand 1: player stacks off TPTK
                              Hand 2: player defends the BB with 94o
                              Hand 3: player loses his mind with AJ


                              PokerStars Hand #115284726265: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:09:02 CT [2014/04/25 11:09:02 ET]
                              Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
                              Seat 1: akinoshima ($2.01 in chips)
                              Seat 2: norte191 ($4.13 in chips)
                              Seat 3: Rusel90 ($3.43 in chips)
                              Seat 4: samruso ($2.92 in chips)
                              Seat 5: Andreazz73 ($1.91 in chips)
                              Seat 6: KYNGFYPANDA ($2 in chips)
                              norte191: posts small blind $0.01
                              Rusel90: posts big blind $0.02
                              *** HOLE CARDS ***
                              samruso: raises $0.04 to $0.06
                              Andreazz73: calls $0.06
                              KYNGFYPANDA: folds
                              akinoshima: calls $0.06
                              norte191: folds
                              Rusel90: folds
                              *** FLOP *** [4h 6d Qs]
                              samruso: bets $0.14
                              Andreazz73: calls $0.14
                              akinoshima: folds
                              *** TURN *** [4h 6d Qs] [2s]
                              samruso: bets $0.32
                              Andreazz73: raises $0.42 to $0.74
                              samruso: raises $1.98 to $2.72 and is all-in
                              Andreazz73: calls $0.97 and is all-in
                              Uncalled bet ($1.01) returned to samruso
                              *** RIVER *** [4h 6d Qs 2s] [9c]
                              *** SHOW DOWN ***
                              samruso: shows [Ac Qd] (a pair of Queens)
                              Andreazz73: shows [4c 4s] (three of a kind, Fours)
                              Andreazz73 collected $3.77 from pot



                              PokerStars Hand #115284745499: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:09:31 CT [2014/04/25 11:09:31 ET]
                              Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
                              Seat 1: Gyro$ Pit4 ($2.45 in chips)
                              Seat 2: marjoryaaa ($2.42 in chips)
                              Seat 3: korrida66 ($2 in chips)
                              Seat 4: boksiukas ($4.19 in chips)
                              Seat 5: drk55 ($2.36 in chips)
                              Seat 6: Maxi_Kiselev ($2.15 in chips)
                              marjoryaaa: posts small blind $0.01
                              korrida66: posts big blind $0.02
                              *** HOLE CARDS ***
                              boksiukas: folds
                              drk55: folds
                              Maxi_Kiselev: folds
                              Gyro$ Pit4: folds
                              marjoryaaa: raises $0.04 to $0.06
                              korrida66: calls $0.04
                              *** FLOP *** [8h 4d Td]
                              marjoryaaa: bets $0.12
                              korrida66: calls $0.12
                              *** TURN *** [8h 4d Td] [4s]
                              marjoryaaa: bets $0.35
                              korrida66: calls $0.35
                              *** RIVER *** [8h 4d Td 4s] [9c]
                              marjoryaaa: bets $1.02
                              korrida66: raises $0.45 to $1.47 and is all-in
                              marjoryaaa: calls $0.45
                              *** SHOW DOWN ***
                              korrida66: shows [9s 4h] (a full house, Fours full of Nines)
                              marjoryaaa: mucks hand
                              korrida66 collected $3.86 from pot
                              *** SUMMARY ***
                              Total pot $4 | Rake $0.14
                              Board [8h 4d Td 4s 9c]
                              Seat 1: Gyro$ Pit4 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                              Seat 2: marjoryaaa (small blind) mucked
                              Seat 3: korrida66 (big blind) showed [9s 4h] and won ($3.86) with a full house, Fours full of Nines
                              Seat 4: boksiukas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                              Seat 5: drk55 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                              Seat 6: Maxi_Kiselev folded before Flop (didn't bet)


                              PokerStars Hand #115284767993: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:10:05 CT [2014/04/25 11:10:05 ET]
                              Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
                              Seat 1: Maxi_Kiselev ($2.69 in chips)
                              Seat 2: v7362986 ($1.92 in chips)
                              Seat 3: Gyro$ Pit4 ($2.04 in chips)
                              Seat 4: zoobr94 ($5.22 in chips)
                              Seat 5: Santaschacki ($1.60 in chips)
                              Seat 6: therookie275 ($1.96 in chips)
                              v7362986: posts small blind $0.01
                              Gyro$ Pit4: posts big blind $0.02
                              *** HOLE CARDS ***
                              zoobr94: folds
                              Santaschacki: raises $0.06 to $0.08
                              therookie275: calls $0.08
                              Maxi_Kiselev: folds
                              v7362986: folds
                              Gyro$ Pit4: calls $0.06
                              *** FLOP *** [7c Js 9c]
                              Gyro$ Pit4: checks
                              Santaschacki: bets $0.08
                              therookie275: raises $0.08 to $0.16
                              Gyro$ Pit4: calls $0.16
                              Santaschacki: calls $0.08
                              *** TURN *** [7c Js 9c] [6c]
                              Gyro$ Pit4: checks
                              Santaschacki: checks
                              therookie275: checks
                              *** RIVER *** [7c Js 9c 6c] [Ks]
                              Gyro$ Pit4: checks
                              Santaschacki: bets $0.12
                              therookie275: raises $0.64 to $0.76
                              Gyro$ Pit4: folds
                              Santaschacki: raises $0.60 to $1.36 and is all-in
                              therookie275: calls $0.60
                              *** SHOW DOWN ***
                              Santaschacki: shows [Qc Ac] (a flush, Ace high)
                              therookie275: shows [Jd As] (a pair of Jacks)
                              Santaschacki collected $3.33 from pot
                              *** SUMMARY ***
                              Total pot $3.45 | Rake $0.12
                              Board [7c Js 9c 6c Ks]
                              Seat 1: Maxi_Kiselev (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                              Seat 2: v7362986 (small blind) folded before Flop
                              Seat 3: Gyro$ Pit4 (big blind) folded on the River
                              Seat 4: zoobr94 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
                              Seat 5: Santaschacki showed [Qc Ac] and won ($3.33) with a flush, Ace high
                              Seat 6: therookie275 showed [Jd As] and lost with a pair of Jacks

                              Sigh... I got nothing... haha. You win this round.

                              Edit: Maybe the big player pool is just showing you all the rare spaz outs
                              But yeah, I'm probs just bugged because I'm downswinging a bit at the moment.
                              Last edited by Swagneto; Fri Apr 25, 2014, 06:42 PM.

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