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NL5 Zoom, Bad Fold?

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  • NL5 Zoom, Bad Fold?

    Hi, Flop comes three diamonds k high, I've got KcQd oop, I check the flop, raised behind 1/2pot, then re-raised by BTN. If I call then the OR will also call, but I don't know where I am in the hand and also assume one villain has the Ad. So was this a good or bad fold? Only posted on this thread as I cant post in the ADVANCED one.

  • #2
    The guy in seat 5 has shown a lot of strength in the hand up to this point. He opened from early position pre, then led into two other players on the flop. He very well could raise again when it gets back to him. The seat 1 guy raised the strong looking seat 5 guy, so that looks pretty strong too. He may raise again if seat 5 raises. I don't have experience with full ring cash, but looks like you may be losing to AK or sets, and maybe your flush draw isn't good so seems fine to fold without putting more in.

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    • #3
      In a full ring game I would give the early raise a bit of credit unless I had reads to say otherwise. Once the button calls I don't think you made a mistake by calling and proceeding with caution if the button hadn't called I would probably just fold with no reads.

      with top pair and the second nut flush draw I don't think I am ready to just fold here, we could be dominated but we have a good bit of equity. when seat 5 bets just half pot I am not putting him on big hand unless he flopped the nuts since we hold the Q of diamonds he would have to have AJ of diamonds. I think he more likely holds an under pair like 99_JJ with a single diamond.

      seat 1 pretty much makes it a pot size bet and I am pretty sure that seat 5 is not raising but I can fold if he does so I would have peeled one card here and re evaluated the turn. Since the button didn't raise pre flop he could have a set or a top pair worse drawing type hand like KJ KT. or even a made flush like suited connectors that we have equity against.

      I think I would have called the flop, I am a little bias because you showed the turn. If you want truely honest answers delete the data once you reach the decision point

      anyway those are my thoughts.
      Last edited by FireMedic815; Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:55 AM.
      Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

      4 Time Bracelet Winner


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      • #4
        Personally I think I would either squeeze or fold preflop. As played I would give up on the flop.

        Cheers,

        Matt

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        • #5
          WAY TOO SOON TO BE SCARED INTO FOLDING. I paused the action as soon as you folded because I didn't believe it. The halfpot cbet could be anything. If he has a real hand say AK or AA without the Ad, he is going to be very concerned about a click back and a call. He is rarely reraising, if you call and he raises and the other reraises or shoves, then you can fold. This clearly is a spot to call and see what develops, you can get away from your hand on later streets. You might even try a semibluff/fold. A check call will look like a strong flush draw or a made flush, even sets and weak flushes will be wary. That click back usually is a single midrange diamond, testing the waters. Weak flushes usually make larger 3bets 'To protect their hand' against Ad and Qd. Yes I know it is hard to play with the second nut flush if another diamond comes off and you get a lot of action, but the Jd and weak flushes and sets won't be getting it allin on the river.

          And I disagree with another comment about the cbettor showing a lot of strength. He is showing some strength, but unless he has the Ad or a set or some kind of fishy flush he will be cautious.

          in poker 'Showing' is not the same as 'Having'

          If he has a hand like AcJc or an underpair to the board, with or without a diamond, cbet bluffing monochrome flops against two is pretty common. He will win often enough to make it profitable, and hands like nondiamond AQ and AJ could even improve and win.

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          • #6
            I'm with lycowolf here... you have a strong hand, and you are getting good odds to improve to the 2nd nut flush.

            I also paused at your fold. And my thoughts are that if I was the Villain and am holding Ad, then I won't be 3-betting or betting to large, so Villain 5 could have Ah. Not sure of the reads you have, but I would expect Villain 1 to maybe 3-bet pre-flop with high Ax?

            Just press played :-(

            I know this is cash, but I also like thinking of the implied odds... if Ad comes down and Villain 1 keeps barrelling, you are getting amazing odds. If a diamond comes down, you probably still have the best hand. And if a K comes down? Has he really got AK or suited diamond connectors? Difficult cos he's on the button.

            However, having said that... take some solace in that if you weren't sure what you were going to do on the turn and river, then folding saves you shipping money in and losing loads, you only had 0.15 invested at that point.

            Just my thoughts and good luck!

            Cheers,

            Apex

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            • #7
              I play 5nl FR zoom, and the majority of the player pool are nits (from my experience), so I don't think it would wrong to assume without any reads or fishy stacks that the UTG+1 is a nit and will have a strong range. I retract not calling the flop raise. Personally I still wouldn't call OOP, multiway,without the initiative, not suited, possibily dominated hand, as I think you won't make a strong enough hand often enough for it to be profitable in the long run.

              Cheers,

              Matt
              Last edited by pullin1988; Wed Apr 16, 2014, 04:54 PM.

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              • #8
                Pullin, I would hope he is a nit, nits with TPTK type hands are not going to want to reraise after a cbet, raise
                and call. The flush board is just too scary for them. Nits with AA and AK without the Ad are just calling. Some of them are just calling with the Ad. Mostly, nits are not reraising this action without a flush and we can get away cheaply.

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                • #9
                  In fact I think your right about it's too soon to fold on this flop. In the last post I wrote "I retract not calling the flop raise"; however, I just don't think I would call preflop. I am making a sort of guess here, but at the moment I don't think I am calling because I just don't think that I will be making FD, etc often often enough - aint that why you play suited connectors, even then you don't hit a FD or OESD often, and are probably marginally profitable if played correctly.

                  You shouldn't be playing KQo hoping to hit a FD, and because I think that you could be dominated, OOP, without inititative, multiway, etc, is why I would fold or maybe even squeeze.

                  What would you guys do when you miss on the flop, which will happen the majority of the time?

                  I welcome your thoughts guys

                  Cheers,

                  Matt
                  Last edited by pullin1988; Wed Apr 16, 2014, 06:02 PM.

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                  • #10
                    I don't think it's a big mistake to fold here vs two players. If it's just one other player in the hand then the decisions become much easier. I also agree that pre-flop it's probably just a fold unless the KQ is suited. It could be a full stack mistake to get it in on a diamond that isn't the ace of diamonds vs two other players. If no diamond comes off then you are still losing to the UTG+1 AK and the other guys set or made flush. I only have 3 BBs invested at this point, and one was my big blind.

                    Maybe I'm being nitty, but I don't mind a fold here as played.

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                    • #11
                      Top pair and second nut flush draw, it is almost as good as it gets, calling with the BTN in the hand is fine, otherwise just fold pre. You can call, but it then be very cautious if you flop naked pair because you are often dominated and cant play big pot, but OOP it is so much harder to control the size of it.

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                      • #12
                        Folding is fine. Being cautious when OOP in multiway pots is the best way to be.
                        Although you would have turned the nuts this time, it's still possible villain had a set and would have re-sucked on the river. If he had no diamonds, it would be hard to get paid when OOP anyway, as the board would be too scary and your hand would be face up if you donked on safe rivers.
                        Bracelet Winner

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