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maybe not the best line for value

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  • maybe not the best line for value

    here is my question. Did I take the best line to extract max value? small sample size but reads on player steal 0 playing 34/24/0 c bet 100 c bet turn 0 really too small of a sample size to give much thought about. I wanted to 3 bet pre, but I thought that I also wanted to call a c bet if the board warranted and I didn't want to build a pot oop. I am actually ok with my decision here. I feel I missed played the flop and the turn and I would really appreciate some feed back.
    Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner
    Last edited by FireMedic815; Tue Apr 01, 2014, 09:08 AM.
    Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

    4 Time Bracelet Winner

  • #2
    This is a common situation both in cash games and in tournaments, how do we extract max value with a monster?
    To get more than a cbet one of your villains has to have hit it pretty hard. On a high card flop, your villains are going to have inelastic* hands. They will either have hit it strongly or they will have missed or hit weakly. They are not putting their stacks with bottom pair, but might be willing to get it in with many broadway hands. I would be check raising or even donk betting this flop. They will fold weak hands and air, but they weren't putting in any more money with them anyway. Playing this kind of hand fast is really important. There are some cards that can hit the turn or river that will scare TPTK, two pairs, pair and straight draws hands. Building a big pot on the flop, will win a stack far more often than check calling. You have the nuts on the flop, but a K or J on the turn are either going to kill your action or split the pot. So build the pot now while you are best. Remember, they aren't putting any more chips in on any street with air or weak pairs, so you are not chasing them
    out of the hand with a check raise, you are maximizing the chips you can get from seemingly strong hands. Stacks
    are at play here, go for one.
    This is a different situation from flopping a straight with 75 on a 864 flop. There it is not too likely that your villains have hit very hard. Check calling on flop, and either donk betting or calling again will extract value from over pairs, and also give unpaired broadways a chance to make over pairs. The villains hands are much more elastic* here in that they can have many hands that will put more in the pot, if you don't go agro on them. While your hand is a great one to go agro with.

    *elastic and inelastic are terms from Economics. A heroin addict has an inelastic demand for heroin, he will pay any price to get it, he has few alternatives. Most caffeine addicts, like myself, can switch to tea, soda or God forbid, even water. If the price of coffee skyrockets, we have an elastic demand for coffee. In poker, inelastic means that you've hit the hand hard or missed, and are either putting lots of chips into the pot or are going away. Elastic hands are ones that we think we can keep putting chips in the pot, as long as the price doesn't go high. i.e. TPTK, over pairs, or hands that can 'improve' on later streets.


    • #3
      thanks lyco, I believe I would have x/r the flop if the bb hadn't been in the hand. I was maybe unrealistically hoping he had a part of that flop, but looking back I think his calling range is so wide that a flop like that actually scares most of his range. He is getting a good price and closing the action so he can hold just about anything.
      Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

      4 Time Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        Hi FireMedic815,

        100K NL is way above my skill level at this point :P But I think I would rather 3bet or fold with KJo from the SB; SB imo is the least position we can call from vs steals and some players would say that they never flat from the SB and would 3bet almost 16% of their hands vs opponents who steal 40-50%. KJo just plays so poorly OOP without initiative that I think it should fall into our low value hand category and we can turn it into a bluff by 3bet/folding. To be able to build maximum value on this flop, then we need to be playing against villain's top range which means that range would always call a raise OTF. I wouldn't worry too much about the BB because their range can be so wide that we are either promised action or not at all.


        • #5
          hi geo, this is play chip zoom. at this level it plays like 2 or 5 nl. I have a real money account on bovada but I can't get hand histories from them.

          I am going to open an account on another site that supports tracking software... I know you guys probably don't want play chip situations on here but this really does play like the micro cash games.

          ohh never mind lol I wrote this after reading just the first sentence and didn't realize you were pulling my leg. hahaha
          Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

          4 Time Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            Makes sense Geo, I really did want to 3 bet. I would have gotten raised I think and had to give it up.

            This hand did go to showdown and I ended up getting max value but only because the other player over played his top pair top kicker, he held AcKc. I donked turn and he called and then I bet big on the river expecting a call but he clicked it back and reopened the action allowing me to shove and then he called the shove.

            I still think I missplayed the hand even though it ended up in a good result.

            Thanks for the review and hopefully next time it will be real money
            Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

            4 Time Bracelet Winner


            • #7
              I would donkbet the flop when multiway with top two pairs or better, expecting to get three streets of value from Ax. Leading out disguises your hand quite well, whereas check-raising will look so strong that one pair hands will often fold. Another benefit of donking with the nuts is that you might get raised, allowing you to get stacks in. When you check the nuts on the flop multiway, it's a disaster if it gets checked around. Not only do you miss a whole street of value, but the board could change radically, either improving someone to the best hand (or a chop), or scaring them so much that you won't get a penny out of them (e.g. if a king or jack comes on turn, A5 hates life).
              On the whole, I want to get money in the pot while I KNOW my hand is best, and while I'm more sure to attract/keep a customer. Donking does this.

              All this said, I would check-raise if my read on the PFR is that he gets attached to top pair or draws. You could x-raise the flop for value, and then bet big on future streets to get "four" streets of value.
              Bracelet Winner


              • #8
                Thanks arty, I didn't have many hands on the player but he did c bet 100% of the time when he had the chance. my original intention was to x/r like I said it was the bb the prevented me from doing so which i think is a mistake.

                I also give what geovarta says a lot of weight, the correct play for KJ pre is to 3 bet fold as a re steal. I know that sometimes I get 4 bet but I also think AK flat calls here sometimes and then I already have a nice size pot and the initiative so the x/r line is moot.

                My thoughts on playing broadways oop is not to build a pot oop. I really think I should be 3 bet folding more in spots like these.

                again thank you both for looking at my hand, I found the feed back very helpful.

                John AKA FireMedic815
                Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

                4 Time Bracelet Winner



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