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NL5 6max Zoom - SB QQ cold 4Bet vs BU small 3Bet

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  • NL5 6max Zoom - SB QQ cold 4Bet vs BU small 3Bet

    Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    BTN: $5.29 (105.8 bb)
    Hero (SB): $5.07 (101.4 bb)
    BB: $2.48 (49.6 bb)
    UTG: $5.28 (105.6 bb)
    MP: $5.56 (111.2 bb)
    CO: $10.93 (218.6 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with Q Q
    UTG folds, MP raises to $0.15, CO folds, BTN raises to $0.34, Hero raises to $1.10, BB raises to $2.48 and is all-in, MP folds, BTN calls $2.14, Hero?

    This hand is from NL5 6max Zoom.

    MP stats
    VPIP:25
    PFR:25
    HANDS:4

    BU stats
    VPIP: 14
    PFR: 12
    AGG: 1.6
    HANDS: 192
    3BET: 8.5(71)
    3BET vs MP: 9.5(21)
    3BET from BU: 5.6(18)
    No fold to 4Bet stats

    BB stats
    VPIP: 27
    PFR: 18
    AGG: 34.0
    HANDS: 107
    3BET: 4.8(42)
    No 4bet, 5bet stats

    So I decided to cold 4bet vs BU small 3bet and BB shoved all in ~50bb, BU called and I did not know what to do in this spot. How would you play here? Is it a mistake to cold 4bet vs BU small 3bet?

  • #2
    The button seems pretty tight and depending on the player a min 3 bet can be pretty strong. ( I have seen them do it weak and strong ) I would say this player is doing it pretty strong and when he just flat calls the half stack 5 bet shove I think we are looking at the very top of his range. I would say you are looking at KK+ I don't know if he calls here with even JJ or AK, I mean if I had JJ or AK and it was 5 bet I am not liking my hand very much. I think we can fold our QQ.
    Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

    4 Time Bracelet Winner


    Comment


    • #3
      never folding

      Comment


      • #4
        Hand is too strong to fold in my opinion, BTN is tight but can still be doing this with worse AK/JJ, and its worth noting that on the small sample he is quite active 3bet wise. It is a small sample though.

        Calling is horrible, so I reshove, I expect to be ahead of the shortstacks range often enough and if BTN is ahead then its a bit of a cooler.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don’t understand how you can ever be good here. But this happens quite regularly, and I would shove, but the most losing hand I have is QQ. So my try:

          BTN: {AK,KK+}
          BB: {77+,AJ+}

          range odds main pot: 34%
          range odds side pot: 40%

          Main pot after shove: 7.59 EV x0.34 = 2.58
          Side pot after shove: 5.18 EV x0,40 = 2.07

          EV shoving: -0.66*1.38+0.34*6.21-0.6*2.59+0.4*2.59 =0.68
          EV folding: -1.1
          -> So it’s a call

          Btw, So EV shoving can be negative, as long as it's over -1.1? But somehow -5.07+(2.58+2.07)+1.1=0.68



          Edit: fk these are labourous and mistake prone

          Edit2: this calculation can not be right, so recalculating -> cant find big mistake

          Edit 3: Finally I found the mistake A BIG one =) so the calculations were very wrong. I calculated my money to the pot to win. -> removed lenghty post about how ridigilous results 'my way' of calculating gave
          Last edited by braveslice; Mon Mar 31, 2014, 03:44 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            I really didn't run any equity calculations here, I am just trying to think what the button does in this spot. I think he would shove with all his AK's and TT-JJ type hands to get hu vs the weaker player.

            Now that the other player is all in and that is the most he can win I think he flats KK+ to try and keep us in the pot. That is my thinking in the hand and why I believe this is a fold, If he doesn't have KK+ here I would note him and get him next time.
            Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

            4 Time Bracelet Winner


            Comment


            • #7
              That would be sensible thing to do surely. I might be wrong, but having two AK combos in his range makes it about even with folding, so 12 combos pairs -> about every fift time he has to have AK to shove.
              Last edited by braveslice; Mon Mar 31, 2014, 03:35 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by braveslice View Post
                That would be sensible thing to do surely.
                I am just going by my read, I could be wrong again. if you put AK and JJ in his flatting range here then sure go ahead and go with it. I just have him on a narrower range here because we 4 bet and we are still left to act. I don't think he put in half his stack to fold to a 6 bet shove, so why not just shove with AK and JJ.
                Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

                4 Time Bracelet Winner


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by braveslice View Post
                  I don’t understand how you can ever be good here. But this happens quite regularly, and I would shove, but the most losing hand I have is QQ. So my try:

                  BTN: {AK,KK+}
                  BB: {77+,AJ+}

                  range odds main pot: 34%
                  range odds side pot: 40%

                  Main pot after shove: 7.59 EV x0.34 = 2.58
                  Side pot after shove: 5.18 EV x0,40 = 2.07

                  EV shoving: -0.66*2.48+0.34*7.59-0.6*2.59+0.4*5.18 =1.46
                  EV folding: -1.1
                  -> So it’s a call

                  Btw, So EV shoving can be negative, as long as it's over -1.1?
                  I mean if we give BU: {AKs,KK+}, we get EV shove = -0.30, but because this is better than -1.1 it's still right to shove? hmmm, surely.

                  This is ridigilous, EV calculations are saying that is correct to call shove heads up almost every time, you only need 33,3% equity.

                  Example 10NL, 100bb:
                  BU: {KK+,AK+} -> shoves
                  BB: {22} -> calls
                  EV about: -0.626*10+0.374*20 = 1.22 -> correct call
                  in this light QQ is auto call every time as are practically JJ and TT as who would shove QQ or JJ.

                  It get's more interesting in multivay shoves, 10NL, 100bb:
                  BU: {KK+,AK+} -> shoves
                  SB: {KK+,AK+} -> shoves
                  BB: {3h2h} -> calls

                  EV about: 0.254*30-0.746*10 = 0.16 -> correct call (as is 3h5h)


                  Edit: fk these are labourous and mistake prone

                  Edit2: this calculation can not be right, so recalculating -> cant find big mistake

                  Edit 3: Finally I found the mistake A BIG one =) so the calculations are very wrong. I calculated my money to the pot to win.
                  Whats BB has 32s all about?

                  If BU shoved we would need 33% equity about so if they have KK+

                  Its an easy fold no need for complex maths calculations if BU has JJ+ AK and BB has JJ+ AK we have 33% equity about vs that range.

                  Seen as the BU flatted though were wondering if we should shove or fold, personally i would flat as the BU is never folding so i can get away and save around 50bb on a A or K high flop. The question then is what about on a low flop, well then we just better hope they have JJ/ AK in there range otherwise we lose this pot every time except when we flop a set.

                  Its a shame you didn't have a bigger hand sample on the BU as his 9% 3bet is meaningless, i find it hard to believe he even has JJ and i see players at 5nl flatting AK on BU 24/7 Vs UTG and MP.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ha haa mike, too slow

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mike2198 View Post
                      Seen as the BU flatted though were wondering if we should shove or fold, personally i would flat as the BU is never folding so i can get away and save around 50bb on a A or K high flop. The question then is what about on a low flop, well then we just better hope they have JJ/ AK in there range otherwise we lose this pot every time except when we flop a set.
                      So you are willing to put half of your stack in pre-flop and then fold any perceived scary flop? I think if you are not prepared to commit then it is a fold.

                      To me that just reads that you are prepared to be bluffed off the best hand, when you have it (And in a big pot too), and commit with the worst hand when you have it and the flop looks innocent enough that we can feel good about stacking off.

                      What are we doing on a QJT flop?

                      What about a JT9 flop?

                      Are we still committing on those?

                      I actually think the BTN can be fairly wide (Not ridiculously wide) here based on the fact that BB is quite active too. This appears to be his only 5bet but we have a tiny sample on him and short stacks should be getting it in with a lighter range.

                      I'm probably wrong, it would be no surprise to me if I am, but I think we have to have extremely solid reads here to lay down QQ with positional and player dynamics.

                      That said, I'm pretty sure in game I have folded this spot, and at 2/5NL have been left fuming that I was pushed out of the hand by ridiculous cards. Being results oriented, it has been kind of funny to CTRL+FOLD and watch the idiotic hands that were in there would have sucked out on me
                      Last edited by bhoylegend; Mon Mar 31, 2014, 04:17 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [QUOTE=bhoylegend;503649]So you are willing to put half of your stack in pre-flop and then fold any perceived scary flop? I think if you are not prepared to commit then it is a fold.

                        I'm probably wrong, it would be no surprise to me if I am, but I think we have to have extremely solid reads here to lay down QQ with positional and player dynamics.]

                        what a great hand for discussion! I could be wrong too, but I am going with my " white magic " and folding! lol
                        Last edited by FireMedic815; Mon Mar 31, 2014, 07:38 PM. Reason: added a ] so you can see when the quote ends
                        Tournament of Champions Winner 2014

                        4 Time Bracelet Winner


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bhoylegend View Post
                          So you are willing to put half of your stack in pre-flop and then fold any perceived scary flop? I think if you are not prepared to commit then it is a fold.

                          To me that just reads that you are prepared to be bluffed off the best hand, when you have it (And in a big pot too), and commit with the worst hand when you have it and the flop looks innocent enough that we can feel good about stacking off.

                          What are we doing on a QJT flop?

                          What about a JT9 flop?

                          Are we still committing on those?

                          I actually think the BTN can be fairly wide (Not ridiculously wide) here based on the fact that BB is quite active too. This appears to be his only 5bet but we have a tiny sample on him and short stacks should be getting it in with a lighter range.

                          I'm probably wrong, it would be no surprise to me if I am, but I think we have to have extremely solid reads here to lay down QQ with positional and player dynamics.

                          That said, I'm pretty sure in game I have folded this spot, and at 2/5NL have been left fuming that I was pushed out of the hand by ridiculous cards. Being results oriented, it has been kind of funny to CTRL+FOLD and watch the idiotic hands that were in there would have sucked out on me
                          Im really not worried about being bluffed at all this villain is basically unknown to me in a 3bet pot if and when he starts 3betting MP wider i can get my QQ pre, If he wants to start bluffing me it wont take long for me to work that out and then i will adjust to him getting out of line and all the small pots i lose will be more than made up for when i start raking in those big pots from him.

                          I don't know why he would be wide here he is a 14/12 nit, so he has obviously read a book or something,so he should also know that 3betting JJ vs an MP open is like turning JJ into a bluff, unless MP was a fish what is MP going to call with OOP that JJ beats? Other than the odd set miner that calls 6x more to fold the missed flop.

                          Then to top it off he flats the shorties shove after our 4bet as well,maybe he wont lay down JJ but when that flop come Axx Kxx i bet he checks behind all the way to showdown.

                          If the flop was Jx i would check it down and i would have to call the pot bet if he snap jams in his whole range OF AK JJ+ on the flop when checked to. As we would be good more than enough to call that bet size, i dont know how that works with the BB in the pot though.

                          Thats just how i would play it i dont know if im correct so dont think im acting like i know what im on about i posted to compare my line to one of the hand analyzers line.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bhoylegend View Post
                            What are we doing on a QJT flop?

                            Obviously stacking off he has JJ KK AA in his range and were getting priced in vs AK on the flop anyway with the stack sizes.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This is a great spot for the BTN to flat with AA imo. They don’t have to settle for the 2.48$ and can play us for the rest of our stack – when they call they leave 2.81$ behind so they can’t go wrong post flop pretty much. But what’s up with their 3bet sizing?! That’s almost like a min raise except they add 80% of an extra bb – I’m really suspicious here! I’m not sure a 14/12 would 3bet small with medium PPs and random Ax hands. Again, I’m REALLY suspicious! I might as well just fold this since I’m not happy with any line I take.

                              The best part of folding is that we still get to see Villain's hand. So our 1.1$ is a sweet investment for a note here that we can use for future reference

                              I’m leaving this one open
                              Last edited by geoVARTA; Mon Mar 31, 2014, 07:19 PM.

                              Comment

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