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5NL 6-max Zoom - Tough Turn with KK

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  • 5NL 6-max Zoom - Tough Turn with KK

    No real stats on villain at all. His flop call was very fast after I bet. He also made the pot turn bet fairly quickly. Looking over the hand again, I think my flop bet was a little on the low side. However I feel my range from villian's POV is also pretty strong and that any turn bet essentially commits me to the pot. Most likely, I feel I'm up against QQ, JJ and 99 here. If he has QQ with Qc he still has ~30% equity going to the river, and I'm crushed if he has 99 or JJ. Thoughts on what may be the best turn play? (or indeed a different line altogether). Also can you indicate whether your advice would be any different for 100BB stacks rather than 200BB. Thanks any for any advice.

  • #2
    I like your sizing OTF. I think 1/2 pot OTF, 1/2 pot OTT, shove OTR is what I would do.

    Checking the turn here is a big mistake IMO. As played I would bet about $3.00 OTT and fold if the villain comes over the top. However, if I was holding the K of clubs I would call a Turn Raise All-in.

    Remember that this is ZOOM. Players act quickly in ZOOM, they feel like they need to get a hand over with and move onto the next. Especially if they are playing 4 zoom tables at the same time.

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    • #3
      I'd be shoving the turn.

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      • #4
        with no reads at all its tough to say what his 3 betting range is pre flop, I mean he did 3 bet a min open and to me the min open looks pretty weak. His 3 bet sizing was pretty solid, but with no reads I don't know that he 3 bets 99 there but its possible. Aces are unlikely but possible, he could have gotten tricky and flatted the 4 bet with AA but I think he would 5 bet.

        His turn bet looks like a protection bet and because you checked the turn I think we have to include AJ, if he is 3 betting 99 there AJ is probably in that range. If he is only doing this with 99, JJ ( AA not likely ) and his AcQc and Ackc then its a clear fold.

        if you add in AJ its pretty close and if he is bluffs some here with a naked A of clubs its a call imo. I don't know that we know that he does this so I have to agree with dirt on a bet fold line on the turn. I wouldn't shove because you're only going to get called if you're beat. I like his sizing too you could even go just a bit smaller like 2.75 and get the same information imo.
        Last edited by FireMedic815; Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:52 AM. Reason: added a sentence
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        • #5
          Hi BossUK,

          The thing that jumps out at me here is our preflop 4-bet sizing, which is significantly large. I know we are 200bb deep but this sizing creates a stack to pot ratio for us that is 3.3-1, which we should be willing to commit on with most board textures where we have an overpair. But the preflop action sequence indicates a strong range of hands for villain such that when all the money goes in post flop, we will often be crushed. In other words, this very large sizing somewhat marks us as a big hand, but the money is deep enough for the villain to still try and outflop us, but not so deep that we can just easily get away from him when he does.

          I think the most apparent solutions to this imo are to either 4b to a smaller, more normal sizing, or don't 4-bet. I think either play is fine. I lean slightly towards a more normal 4b sizing of about .95c, which is a slight adjustment up to compensate for the depth of money, yet still allows the villain more doubt about our strength, more room to 5-bet us light, and more room for us to bet/fold post flop on bad board textures like this one by keeping the base pot a bit smaller.

          As played I don't think there's any easy solution, my preference is to bet/fold the turn but the pot is so big now (due to our preflop sizing) that it seems gross. But if we bet like 2.75 and he shoves, we are rarely good and often drawing dead, so there's no point in calling it off.

          As an aside, I think bet/bet/shove is not good except against the fishiest of players... I don't expect a single pair of kings to be good too often when 400bb's go in the middle on this board.
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          • #6
            Hi guys,

            Thanks for taking the time to look at the hand for me, it's appreciated.

            As has already been said in this thread, I see my turn check was pretty bad. I definitely could've played that part better.

            TheLangolier, I hadn't really thought about making my 4-bet size smaller in this instance (or more generally), but I'll definitely think about it more in future. Normally, if I'm out of position and deep, I tend to make it a bit larger.

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