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BvB, how can I improve?

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  • BvB, how can I improve?

    PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players Hand converted by PokerTracker 4 BTN: $2.01 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9) SB: $2.78 (VPIP: 27.40, PFR: 19.86, 3Bet Preflop: 4.92, Hands: 153) Hero (BB): $6.05 UTG: $2.13 (VPIP: 20.29, PFR: 15.12, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 213) MP: $0.95 CO: $2.14 (VPIP: 19.35, PFR: 19.35, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 33) SB posts SB $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02 Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $0.06, Hero calls $0.04 Flop: ($0.12, 2 players) SB bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08 Turn: ($0.28, 2 players) SB checks, Hero bets $0.12, SB raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.18 River: ($0.88, 2 players) SB bets $2.34 and is all-in, fold SB wins $0.85. In this hand I was mainly going for value and trying to get him to bluff me on 3 streets. However, as a general rule of thumb in micro zoom play, I generally don't mess with people who shove (especially as overbet 3x pot) on the river. In this scenario I generally put him on A5 or 22.
    Last edited by Swagneto; Fri Feb 28, 2014, 08:57 AM. Reason: Added some range for Villian

  • #2
    Hi Swagneto and welcome to PSOumbup: The main issue with this hand is the preflop action. Just fold marginal hands like Q5s. There just aren't enough flops that are good for us. If you flop a 5, you will rarely have top pair, if you flop a Q you run the risk of losing a big pot to a villain with a Q and a better kicker. You won't be flopping a straight draw since your cards are not connected. And you will not be flopping a nut flush draw either. All this means you will not be able to value bet with confidence on most flops. This becomes clear as the hand plays out. As played, you call and flop middle pair. Already we don't know if the villain has an A, or a better pocket pair, or just cbetting with air, but call not quite sure if we are ahead or behind. You improve on the turn getting trips. Betting is great, but what can we put the villain on when he check-raises us? His range includes some hands beating us, full houses, and K5, but it also includes some overplayed Ax hands. A read on the villain would help us better define his range. Again we call because it is unclear if we are ahead or behind. Then the villain jams the river. Since this situation has become some murcky, folding seems to be the best option. I agree with your fold. By asking ourself "what am I hoping to flop with this hand?" it becomes easier to determine the best line postflop. Here, there aren't many good flops for Q5, so folding pre would be best. It would have allowed us to avoid such an unclear postflop situation. I hope this helps GL and have fun at the tables! Roland GTX


    • #3
      Don't fold Q5s bvb.


      • #4
        Hello Swagneto

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        • #5
          Originally posted by birdayy View Post
          Don't fold Q5s bvb.
          I think your right that you can call these hands if SB is wide ive seen alot of it going on in some of the higher stakes vids, but it will put most of us in spots were not comfortable with and im not sure even if anyone was good enough that you could make money with these hands at the micros because of the rake.

          A 2/5 player was on about it in a vid when he was reviewing a 100nl player and was going ape when the guy was folding these types of hands and then started saying that maybe some of the hands are a fold because of the rake.


          • #6
            I might agree with not folding but if we are playing it, let's play it for a light 3bet bluff.


            • #7
              Great discussionumbup: For me there are two important aspects to consider. Firstly, is Q5s going to be profitable simply based on hand value alone? I think this is going to be a loser, or boarderline at best, for all the reasons I stated in my first post. Secondly, we need to consider our own skill level. A pro like Felix or Gareth who is great at playing post flop could probably play a hand like this. However, they will not be relying on thier cards, but rather relying heavily on their reading skills of the villain. Forcing villains with marginal hands to fold and getting away from spots where the villain has flopped a strong hand. Here we dont have any specific reads or notes on the villain. Most players at 2NL do not have the experience or skill level to play a hand like this profitably, myself included. We will more often than not get lost postflop if we choose to play marginal hands out of position. I still fully recommend folding preflop. Roland


              • #8
                You have to call pre-flop in position with this hand and these pot odds.

                In BvB, you can float 100% of flops whether you connect or not (although it's nicer to have a pair or backdoor draw to fall back on), and then steal the pot on the turn when villain checks. In this particular hand it got very "interesting", as you actually made trips and villain seemed to give up, but then check-raised. I'd be tempted to shove the turn, tbh, but calling and folding to the river shove is fine too.
                Bracelet Winner


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
                  You have to call pre-flop in position with this hand and these pot odds.
                  I thought you were tighter than me Arty !

                  Why do we "have to call" with a hand that we are doomed to get lost with postflop? All these small calls that seem cheap, add up to be a huge drain on our roll. Position and pot odds are of lesser importance against an unknown villain and a hand that is difficult to play.

                  I wrote a blog post a while back that talks assessing your flop potential. You have read it Arty, but it might be of interest. It explains my way of thinking at any rate.




                  • #10
                    I used to always fold Q5s in spots like this, but I've been watching a lot of coaching videos and studying my database. (Historically, I've been a super-nit in the blinds, and it's time to LAG it up! )
                    While I'd recommend beginners avoid "trouble hands" in general, I think we should be defending close to 50% of our hands in a BvB situation. Just about anything suited is playable in this spot, I think.
                    Bracelet Winner


                    • #11
                      I get your point Arty, but am still very concerned that most players at 2NL are going to get lost postflop with a hand like this. Moreover, Q5s is -ev vs a 50% opening range (43% in Equitylab). It still seems to me that the only way to be profitable with a subpar hand like this is if our postflop skills are above par. In this particular spot, the villain is unknown and the hero is unknown to me at least.

                      Im listening to what you are saying, but Im still not convinced. Interesting discussion though



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