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10nl zoom 6m - TP on wet board vs casual, not sure where I stand ... river line?

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  • 10nl zoom 6m - TP on wet board vs casual, not sure where I stand ... river line?

    This is kind of a fun hand ... Am interested to hear peoples' thoughts, since sometimes it's hard to see things in your own hand? This isn't a line I usually take, so if people think it was sub-optimal, please feel free to say so - would really appreciate the honesty. Thought the villain's most likely holding was Qx? Although it seemed like J9 (for the straight) or a small flush was an outside possibility. But didn't think it too likely the villain had a boat, which is what I guess I was trying to represent? Guess I just wasn't too sure about the villain's kicker, if the villain had Qx - whether mine was ahead, or whether KQ might be tied or even behind ... felt like AQ and KQ would fold to a shove? But you think maybe it would have been better to just call behind? Or re-raise (with the intention of folding to a shove), in case the villain had a lesser kicker ... or a better hand, including a better kicker, and didn't fold? Had to re-install Windows a couple of days ago, which meant having to set up ALL my PokerStars settings from scratch - think that's got me a little out of sorts ... hence this atypical river shove. You think it was maybe sub-optimal? Thanks so much for the help everybody - eager to hear peoples' thoughts umbup:
    Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Feb 02, 2014, 12:56 AM.

  • #2
    Hi Sam,

    I tend to agree that villain is pretty heavy in Qx here. I don't think we can tell this from the flop donk bet, because players do that with draws sometimes, but when the clubs come in and he bets small, it looks a lot more like QJ/Q9 to me, maybe KQ. Villain continued to your raise however so I'm guessing they felt like they had outs, QJ/Q9 perhaps with the J or 9 clubs. The river bet looks like a last ditch attempt to get the hand to showdown for what they think it's worth. Since you can beat pretty much all their Qx hands except KQ which you tie, I would probably just call here. On the chance we're mistaken. If however we held just the naked Ac, or a hand like AcTh, then I think there's a decent case for turning it into a bluff and moving in like this as I think he's only donking the river for $1.50 to avoid having to check/call a value bet of $2.50-$3.00, and with that mindset for the villain I expect this raise to get tons of folds.
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    • #3
      Hi Sam, The @TheLangolier is in before me, so not going to do any ranging. But sometimes I generalize opponents on bet sizing. Then we can confirm our line by telling a story if the villain is listening and at 10NL maybe they are? I like that you stick to your guns and represent strength all the way. The spew thing I may do is raise the flop donk bet, any takers on that idea? At first the lead bet size looks strongish. We need to protect a marginal spot where we can represent a better pre flop hand or draw in a non 3-bet pot with a villain calling sb oop. As played the turn bet is the same size as the donk lead and so ( IMO now bad bet sizing and no stack top up, reads? ) "raise it up" as you did. Glad you stuck with it on the river and got the fold. umbup:

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      • #4
        haha - thought there was a chance the river shove might get some likes Although Dave makes a great point - KQ is a hand we don't mind showing down. Never thought of shoving with Ac, although I've had people do it to me - my LeakBuster program's been encouraging me to bluff a little more, so maybe that's the kind of thing I could try out next? On a good day, I'm not the most patient person - so on a not great day ... guess this villain's persistent little mini-donk bets must have gotten on my last nerve. Think that was responsible for my choice of line more than anything, so ... am really glad it worked too - may have dodged a bullet there Thought about raising the flop Forrest Sometimes I would in that spot - guess I thought by checking behind, that'd give me the chance to see what the villain did on the turn? Although, you point out some really good reasons for why a raise might be preferable. Hmmm ... maybe this is one of those spots where there was more than one way to play, hopefully? You both noticed stuff I didn't - that the villain's turn bet was the same size as the flop bet, and that for the villain to call my re-raise probably meant a Qx hand with a club. Think I was a little more worried about a straight or a flush than I should have been because of that, and that might have been part of what compelled me to shove. Must have really been playing my c-game yesterday - hopefully I can do a little better today ... otherwise I may be back with more hands like this one lol Thanks so much for the feedback Dave, Forrest - was great to hear your thoughts on the hand ... as always, it gave me a lot to think about, and I learned a lot!! umbup:
        Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Feb 02, 2014, 02:58 PM.

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        • #5
          Dave, Forrest umbup:

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
            Dave, Forrest umbup:
            If i was v5 and i know you bet your flushes on the turn i would snap call Qx

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mike2198 View Post
              If i was v5 and i know you bet your flushes on the turn i would snap call Qx
              It's a lot easier to bluff-catch when you can see the bluffer's hole cards, isn't it?

              The villain's a profitable, straight-forward playing reg ... not sure why he check-called the flop rather than bet out, but he could just as easily be doing it with KQ, KJ, KT in addition to QJ, AQ. So when the turn bricks, I wouldn't double-barrel versus this villain since there's a fair number of hands in his range he wouldn't be folding.

              Although you know what, as a general rule I'm not that crazy about bluffing regs when there's so many other players in the pool that are easier to win pots against - just because the regs are all so smart. Like it's just always seemed like it's a lot more EV to keep things really straight-forward and simple versus the better players?
              Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Feb 09, 2014, 11:15 PM.

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