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10NLz 6max, open utg KK and make a note...

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  • 10NLz 6max, open utg KK and make a note...

    Not going to say/read anything more than the villain's betting line appears wrong with such a big raise to my c-bet on the flop.

    Tweet Boom Note:
    Villain's flop raise was so big! So I read it as so very bad? A set does not bet that much.

    I raised KcKs utg, +1 flats. Folds to me utg flop 8s4hJh I c-bet 35c into 72c and villain raises $1.80 a huge bet that I call. I can keep Ax and worse pairs in? Turn 9d...

    You may think my jam on the turn is reckless? I'm thinking I have excluded a set because of the big flop raise, so Ah8h on a draw? Maybe a gut shot, oesd, 2 pair, what? QJ, QT, J8 calls pre?

    So what is the villain's hand? All I went on was the pre call, flop raise and...
    (can't say)



    PS. Even though I see the mucked hand you can't here in the replay. Sorry you can see showdown in tweet space.
    Last edited by ForrestFive; Sat Jan 25, 2014, 10:34 AM.

  • #2
    gii otf.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ForrestFive View Post
      PS. Even though I see the mucked hand you can't here in the replay. Sorry you can see showdown in tweet space.
      Nice hero call Forrest hehe umbup:

      Comment


      • #4
        I'd make the original flop CBet a bit bigger because of the various draws possible that you can extract value from, $0.50-$0.55 looks about right to me.

        Villain's big bet looks more like a draw than for value IMO.

        If you're going to call and donk-shove the turn, why not just shove the flop when you stand a better chance of getting called by worse (i.e. draws)?

        Generally when Out of Position on a wet flop texture like this, I'd rather just get all in with my value range because scary turn cards will be so hard to play.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Spand,

          I'm confused when the GII "get it in", OTF "on the flop" suggestion is an option why?

          The "why" is the flop raise is too big why? At the time (in my head change KK to A8hh) just one pair and nut draw. So would I now have the implied odds to GII? Or obviously the villain is pushing me off that same draw with such a big bet. Excluding sets and 2 pair and again why raise so much?

          Then I don't understand mathematically if the villain has a value raise with the same nut draw when I changed my cards.


          I get what your saying, the turn is a definite scare card giving more straightening draws plus the flush and now I lead jam. At this point I'm probably giving a price for the villain to draw.

          But was the villain correct in the first place to raise the flop so big or is that value owning yourself?

          I have a lot to learn, still my one pair held up. Villain had QcJc, so flop top pair runner runner no flush and picked up a gut shot on the 9 turn. I think maybe it was an aggressive flop raise to push me off a hand.
          Last edited by ForrestFive; Sun Jan 26, 2014, 06:28 AM. Reason: link to show down mucked hand / aggressive raise

          Comment


          • #6
            Shoving over his flop raise allows us to make less mistakes on future streets.

            We also dominate a lot of his draws and have outs if he has 2 pair.

            He may also overvalue top pair which he will call off on the flop once he has raised.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by birdayy View Post
              Shoving over his flop raise allows us to make less mistakes on future streets. We also dominate a lot of his draws and have outs if he has 2 pair. He may also overvalue top pair which he will call off on the flop once he has raised.
              Thanks birdayy, Less mistakes and good decisions, I agree with that. umbup:

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ForrestFive View Post
                Or obviously the villain is pushing me off that same draw with such a big bet. Excluding sets and 2 pair and again why raise so much?
                Because a lot of villains play badly and think that raising big looks scary and you'll fold.

                Originally posted by ForrestFive View Post
                But was the villain correct in the first place to raise the flop so big or is that value owning yourself?
                Villain's play is not great but I wouldn't say he was value-owning himself. If he is bluffing, he will get better hands to fold taking this line. If he plays a set like this, he will get worse sets/overpairs to call.

                His problem is that when he raises so big, he should be doing this with both bluffs/semi-bluffs and made hands, otherwise he will be very easy to read.

                The advantage of raising "normally" is that he can likely achieve a similar rate of folds/calls without risking so much of his stack when he is bluffing.

                Originally posted by ForrestFive View Post
                I get what your saying, the turn is a definite scare card giving more straightening draws plus the flush and now I lead jam. At this point I'm probably giving a price for the villain to draw.
                This turn card wasn't that bad, I was thinking of a heart, particularly a heart + straight card, or even an A as being more scary.

                Ultimately it's harder to play Out Of Position, so if you can profitably get all in as soon as possible, then you negate the positional advantage that your opponent has over you for the later streets.

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