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2NL FR Zoom - BvB TTP vs minraise and big river bet

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  • 2NL FR Zoom - BvB TTP vs minraise and big river bet

    Opps was 20/20/1 but I had just 5 samples. At the time I ranged him to maaaybe A/K/good kicker or PP given the click back. Any case for shoving the Turn?

  • #2
    Why did you donk the flop? (I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad play, I'm just interested in your thought process).
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    • #3
      Hi Nash,

      I think we do better checking and letting him c-bet his entire range here, then check/raising to build a pot against AT-AK (c/c doesn't help much since he'll put us on an ace mostly, and be wary of a slow play if we raise on a later street).

      I think you meant to ask if there's a case for 3B shoving the river? I don't think so, his river stack off range should mostly be stronger than A9. I think we are strong enough to call for this price considering he may raise for value with some worse 2 pairs and maybe with something worse that's not really making sense, but the nonsense stuff just folds to a reraise shove.

      If you actually did mean shoving the turn, then I would say:

      1) What would your reason be to think worse hands will call a shove of 5x the pot size? We are basically value owning ourselves with such a massive overbet.
      2) Don't be results oriented (The only reason I can think that would prompt this question is he's got AK or KK)
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      • #4
        Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
        Why did you donk the flop? (I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad play, I'm just interested in your thought process).
        I felt I was ahead seeing that flop and wished to build a pot.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
          Hi Nash,

          I think we do better checking and letting him c-bet his entire range here, then check/raising to build a pot against AT-AK (c/c doesn't help much since he'll put us on an ace mostly, and be wary of a slow play if we raise on a later street).

          I think you meant to ask if there's a case for 3B shoving the river? I don't think so, his river stack off range should mostly be stronger than A9. I think we are strong enough to call for this price considering he may raise for value with some worse 2 pairs and maybe with something worse that's not really making sense, but the nonsense stuff just folds to a reraise shove.

          If you actually did mean shoving the turn, then I would say:

          1) What would your reason be to think worse hands will call a shove of 5x the pot size? We are basically value owning ourselves with such a massive overbet.
          2) Don't be results oriented (The only reason I can think that would prompt this question is he's got AK or KK)

          Thanks Dave, I did mean the Turn and was being results oriented and didn't realise it.
          I mean I don't think he had KK, he would've bet more pre, but AK was well in his range even sets, guess I shouldn't fold the top of my range there every time against unknowns BvB.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by IBNash View Post
            I felt I was ahead seeing that flop and wished to build a pot.
            Against what? Anything worse than AJ+ will just fold, so you get no value at all.
            I'd rather check-call the flop, so that villain will put money in the pot with his entire range, not just the hands that made top pair. If villain makes it clear he has a big ace, then you can check-raise the turn.
            Try and think about villain's range and how it will react to your actions. When you're out of position and you don't have the initiative, but you have a big hand, the usual play is to check to the raiser. It's not a great idea to donk out, as this gives villain the option to fold before he's put in a single cent.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
              Against what? Anything worse than AJ+ will just fold, so you get no value at all.
              I'd rather check-call the flop, so that villain will put money in the pot with his entire range, not just the hands that made top pair. If villain makes it clear he has a big ace, then you can check-raise the turn.
              Try and think about villain's range and how it will react to your actions. When you're out of position and you don't have the initiative, but you have a big hand, the usual play is to check to the raiser. It's not a great idea to donk out, as this gives villain the option to fold before he's put in a single cent.
              "Against whatever" was my thought at the time. I kinda stopped thinking about his range OTF and it seemed unlikely someone minraising would fold AJ+ there BvB and wanted to build a pot without giving free cards.

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