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5NL, 6Max Zoom, AA, Value own vs passive.

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  • 5NL, 6Max Zoom, AA, Value own vs passive.

    Hello all. I recently posted a Cash Hand for analysis on the topic of value betting. http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...770#post473770 The consensus appeared to be that against this type of opponent (loose passive) I'd missed a street of value by getting scared on the river. I believe the advice given was best fold every street. Funnily enough, today I encountered a similar scenario. (Villain: VPIP 27 PFR 9) and tried to learn from my mistakes by deciding to bet fold every street. Could you guys let me know if this is just a side effect of playing against this type of opponent or does the board texture change the way I should play this? I'd hate to be a donk who can't get away from hands. Cheers all

  • #2
    I'm not playing it any different.

    A lot of the time you are going to have the best hand by the river, he hasn't given you any reason to think your hand is second best, when he keeps calling, he probably has something. That could easily have been a flush draw although it wouldn't have been the nut flush he could think his KQs/KTs would be good if another flush card comes.

    I wouldnt call this value owning yourself, if he'd raised turn, and you shoved over that, possibly.

    This was a 3bet pot and he wasnt a full stack, though not that far off it, just bad luck that he had it this time. I also recently posted a hand which was something similar, board all undercards to my top pair, villain never raised me, so I continued to bet what I thought was the best hand. You can see the analysis I was given. Its not identical as I am OOP but the basic premise is the same.

    http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...G-1-raiser-5NL

    Also, it was deeper stacked, and it was still the right line to keep betting absent of suitable reads.
    Last edited by bhoylegend; Mon Dec 30, 2013, 09:50 PM.

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    • #3
      I would have chicked out and check back the river, probably losing a lot of value in the long run.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by bhoylegend View Post
        I'm not playing it any different.

        A lot of the time you are going to have the best hand by the river, he hasn't given you any reason to think your hand is second best, when he keeps calling, he probably has something. That could easily have been a flush draw although it wouldn't have been the nut flush he could think his KQs/KTs would be good if another flush card comes.

        I wouldnt call this value owning yourself, if he'd raised turn, and you shoved over that, possibly.

        This was a 3bet pot and he wasnt a full stack, though not that far off it, just bad luck that he had it this time. I also recently posted a hand which was something similar, board all undercards to my top pair, villain never raised me, so I continued to bet what I thought was the best hand. You can see the analysis I was given. Its not identical as I am OOP but the basic premise is the same.

        http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...G-1-raiser-5NL

        Also, it was deeper stacked, and it was still the right line to keep betting absent of suitable reads.
        Awesome, yeah it seems like everyone was in support of that, and Spand even specifically said they might have sets but it doesn't matter. Think I'm going to keep trying to find spots where I unnecessarily get scared on the river. Thanks for the info.

        Originally posted by rkleefstra View Post
        I would have chicked out and check back the river, probably losing a lot of value in the long run.
        Definitely one of my main problems at the minute. Cheers for being honest! From lots of poker resources it seems like this is one of the most common cash game leaks that learning players have.

        Thanks guys and GL.

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        • #5
          In a 3-bet pot with a big overpair in position, bet-bet-bet is standard, I think. I'm committed on the turn, but it still makes me puke that villain didn't raise before the river, so it's almost impossible to put him on a set.
          Bracelet Winner

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          • #6
            Hi Buff,

            Against loose-passive players Bet/fold is a fine line with a premium overpair. sometimes he'll show up with a set or 2 pair, or a 5, but he'll pay us off with Jx and busted flushes that contain an 8 or maybe a 6, and other pockets like 99 that are bluff catching us.

            I'd hate to be a donk who can't get away from hands.
            No chance this hand, he didn't give you a chance to get away from it... he never took an aggressive action.

            but it still makes me puke that villain didn't raise before the river
            It shouldn't make you puke Arty, it should make you rejoice... it's fantastic for us. He's going to give us a free card on the turn when we have a draw to beat him, and not punish us for max value when we've got a hand like this, leaving us 31 blinds a better player would have taken.
            Head Live Trainer
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            4 Time Bracelet Winner



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            • #7
              Nice to see that you've taken our advice on board and lost a stack because of it - sigh.

              Seriously though as the others have already alluded to, I think you played this hand really well.

              I like your preflop 3Bet size. I personally like to keep my sizings the same for whatever hand I hold, but if the opponents aren't really paying attention or caring, then you could size for 3Bet a touch bigger.

              The flop is pretty safe, you block the nut flush draw and it is hard for villain to have any decent straight draws. If his preflop raise percentage is only 9%, I doubt he's raising 65, he's probably limping with that.

              If villain is passive post-flop, I think you can make your CBet bigger, say to $0.70. This will extract more value from the villain if he is on some sort of draw before he misses and gets more value if he's just going to float with some pocket pair that hasn't made a set.

              The turn is a brick, no realistic draws have hit, only 66 has hit if he decide to float with 3rd pair. You should continue to bet being pretty confident that you have the best hand.

              Once he calls I think his range includes all sets (although I think 44 is a bit less likely because he might just limp with this), AJ-TJ, 88-QQ and some flush draws e.g. KQss.

              The river is a very minor scare card. The only 5x hand that is realistic is 55, he might have also spiked a rivered set with 88.

              However these possibilities make up a relatively small part of villain's range and rely on him being really loose post-flop in the face of really strong action. I agree with your shove aiming to extract value from Jx, QQ, maybe 99-TT even call three streets if they're particularly unbelieving.

              You had no reason to believe you were behind at any point and more often than not you will be taking all his chips when he shows Jx.

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