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50nl 6m-Caught light in multi-way 3b pot

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  • 50nl 6m-Caught light in multi-way 3b pot

    MP - 12/9 F3B79% (26K hands) BTN - New to table, no read other than his choice of buy in size SB - 37/19 (107 hands) $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players Hand converted by PokerTracker 4 Hero (CO): $53.32 BTN: $19.00 SB: $47.50 BB: $50.04 UTG: $69.13 MP: $85.83 SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50 Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has fold, MP raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $4.50, BTN calls $4.50, SB calls $4.25, fold, MP calls $3.00 Flop: ($18.50, 4 players) SB checks, MP checks, Hero ? Ok so I 3b light because of specific reads on MP, he's a reg who plays pretty nitty and doesn't like to continue in 3b pots OOP without a monster... I don't abuse him constantly but was on 4 or 5 tables with him and hadn't 3b him anywhere in a while so the timing felt right. Perhaps given the players behind me it wasn't so great tbh... fair enough. The 2 cold calls did surprise me at the time though. So, thoughts on our flop action? If we check it's kind of meh, we are almost giving up basically unless we get a free turn and catch a J or Q, and that doesn't seem great with some equity. Should we c-bet into a 4 way pot though? Basically as a semi-bluff? I will ask Gareth or Flix to analyze this after discussion time (looking forward to seeing their take!), but hope as a group we can come up with a plan backed by some solid reasoning.
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  • #2
    Hi Dave, I'll give it a shot...

    Villain_Nit's call range here is quite polarized with 79% F3B, and would give 1.8% on his 3BP call OOP. (JJ-AA, and just the combos of AKs). In reality I think this is more like AA-KK with maybe half combos of QQ/JJ (1.1%).

    As a BTN cold call range - with his stack, all PP are in. I have opted out half combos of AA-QQ, where he may elect to 4bet rather than flat call.

    For SB, would be safe to give him the widest range here, removing A2-A9o, AA-QQ as a 3bet, add in suited connectors 54s+ and 1 gappers 64s+.. and 86o+, 76o+. approx 27%

    Regardless of what % we give SB/BTN, the continuation ranges post-flop of one of these 2 villain's holdings is likely to hold at least 1+ more of your outs (J,Q).

    At best, we probably have 20% equity at this point on the flop.


    If it is checked through, we get to see the Turn free, with the chance to spike a club drawing to a straight flush or J/Q. Not sure if I'd want to see another J on the turn also, though, as KK is right up Villain_Nit's alley. Semi-bluffing here would bloat out the pot on the turn even if we end up HU, and we only have 2nd pair with backdoor (+straight) flush / gutshot draw, with a potential $40+ pot when we hit the turn.

    The idea of leading out, with the chance the BTN folds, gives us position for the next 2 streets however... although the BTN only has 1 pot sized bet left on flop.

    Maybe checking back is 'meh', but it does give the opportunity for the BTN to possibly bet his whole range. If he does, the action from SB and Villain_Nit may make our decision easier to call/fold.

    Would be hard to see a scenario where there isn't at least a reraise if any villain is holding a set or made straights on this board. Or be able to continue without combo draws with a backdoor to the nut flush (if clubs we are near drawing dead, bar straight flush obv). Top 2 pair, may possibly peel another card.

    IMO check through to the BTN on the flop. I think the only Turn card I would like to see here is 8c > Qc.


    • #3
      I would probably check call the flop to see what comes on the turn.

      As everybody around here keeps pumping into you:
      You either bet to bluff, bet for value or bet to fold better or get worse to call.

      Bluffing 3 opponents good luck with that.
      Bet for value: we don't have too much equity at the moment.
      I don't think much worse is calling.
      And I don't think much better is folding.

      So I think check call with the intention of giving up on the turn if we don't improve.



      • #4
        Personally, I think I give up here and now on the flop.

        With that board I think we are often behind. We have back door clubs for a flush and it may be good if we hit it but we need to see the next two cards for that. If we hit our straight with the Q we could still be behind or splitting. That is maybe weak, but if our intention was to 3bet the tight player light, and we ended up 4 to the flop and multi-way, our plans have to change to reflect that.

        At the lowest levels I have cbet this kind of board multi-way and got folds, not all the time. I don't think it plays the same at 50NL though where we can expect more resistance from players who know what they are doing.


        • #5
          X and fold if not improved

          It’s a 4 way pot and there are 2 fish on the pot whose calling range is hugely hit by the flop and one of them have the calling size stack with anything - and the other one doesent propably care. There is a nit whose 3b calling range includes AK, KQ, JJ, 99. If you bet you are commited?

          That said I don’t think betting is wrong because we have outs too, but I think this is a bit gambling.

          Says 2NL player.
          Last edited by braveslice; Mon Dec 30, 2013, 01:25 PM.


          • #6
            Originally posted by Marc Rae View Post
            Hi Dave, I'll give it a shot...

            Villain_Nit's call range here is quite polarized with 79% F3B, and would give 1.8% on his 3BP call OOP. (JJ-AA, and just the combos of AKs). In reality I think this is more like AA-KK with maybe half combos of QQ/JJ (1.1%).
            I think nit's calling range is much wider than normally, given that he was last to act.


            • #7
              Some questions about the pre-flop action:

              Is it really j10s the best hand to 3bet light against a villain that folds 79%? Wouldn't it make sense to be completly polarized here, 3betting 27o? J10s is so pretty and can flop so well against is nit range that it seems a shame to have to fold it after a 4bet.

              Post-flop: i would find a fast exit to the hand. The pot is bloated, there are short-stacks and in a 3-bet pot people will go crazy. Granted it's multi-way and villains will be more honest. But also multi-way means someone will have a K here and is going to stack off. I have no idea what the math is in this scenario but my instinct tells me it's a gambling spot. I hate to gamble so i fold.


              • #8
                Think I would be prepared to double barrel this.

                Prob bet around $14 - $16 on flop, as we have 3 bet pre there is quiet a lot that we have in our range that hits that board fairly well. Depending on how many players we lose to the flop bet, and the turn card I would be prepared to fire a second barrel as there could be lots of interesting options opening up, but would be prepared to reassess to reaction of others flop and turn.


                • #9
                  I think we can bet wayyy smaller in this situation with similar fold equity that will give us a tonne of information (cringe i HATE info bets) but I think it's superior to checking here.

                  I would bet $6.85 and fold if raised / reevaluate OTT pending who calls OTF.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by birdayy View Post
                    I think we can bet wayyy smaller in this situation with similar fold equity that will give us a tonne of information (cringe i HATE info bets) but I think it's superior to checking here.

                    I would bet $6.85 and fold if raised / reevaluate OTT pending who calls OTF.
                    That line would be really good if the lag was on the BU and the nit in the SB because the lag probably wont make any moves with the nit still in the pot and the nit probably wont make any moves anyway.

                    If they flatted would that be a good time to assume that they got a weak made hand or a draw and we can maybe run a bluff on some run outs.


                    • #11
                      Let's think deeply about the initial raiser's range.

                      Can they have QT? No, wouldn't raise preflop. Can they have KK or QQ? Almost certainly they would have four-bet these. JJ is blocked. Again, AK would have four-bet with the dead money behind. So in terms of hands from them, we are beat by KQ, KJ, QJ, and 99. Not unlikely, but also not likely. The reason being is that once all that dead money is in the pot, they are going to be calling with all their pocket pairs as well as AQ and any other broadway hands they can have. Because of their nittiness that might mean only KQs, KJs, QJs.

                      In short, I am not worried about giving their range a free-card. This is going to help us more than them.

                      Our hand has a great deal of showdown value. It is also a terrible semi-bluff and a terrible value hand. I don't see any plausible reason to bet it. We aren't going to fold QJ or AJ from either of the weak players, getting value from T9/TT/A9 now doesn't offset our risks and is something we can do later, once in a blue moon.

                      But also, look at our hand. We have backdoor clubs, a pair, and a gutshot. Our gutshot would be tremendously dirty if we had QJ, because of the preponderance of AQ in the cold callers ranges, but with JT we are going to be best on a Q turn/river a lot of the time.

                      The times we turn a J or a club, also, have incredible value in this situation. Most of the value of our hand comes when the flop and turn checks through. We are a 3:1 dog versus KQ. I just can't see justifying a bet when hands like that are out there so often.


                      • #12
                        I think in general you have to be pretty cautious in multi-way pots. Once the Button calls your Preflop 3Bet, the others might feel they've got a better price to call with some of their more marginal holdings, which include a lot of broadway combinations.

                        Of course CBetting into 3 players on a fairly wet board looks extremely strong.

                        The problem with CBetting a flop like this is that you're almost never going to get three folds, so you're probably going to have to fire another barrel OTT when you miss, otherwise the flop CBet doesn't make much sense.

                        I think you've got pretty good backdoor equity so I would just check, hope the button checks and re-evaluate if you improve OTT.


                        • #13
                          Hey all,

                          Thanks for the replies. I agree with Gareth's points... in the heat of the moment I did c-bet, but I didn't really like it. I was pretty sure the reg can't have AK/KK/AA because he always 4b's those big in this spot, and I block JJ so the only real concern was 99. I also thought that a bet into 4 players would look super strong and no one was getting out of line (the reg actually knows I virtually never c-bet in a 4 way pot without the goods so I know he's folding everything but 99... and I also thought he would not call pre with KJs type hands because of their propensity to be dominated, but call with his pocket pairs for set mine value). And I thought the other players would fold hands like AJs facing this much strength (this is flawed given what we know about these villains though... they should fold AJ in a heartbeat, but we don't know if they will or not).
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